Planning After Dark
Welcome to Planning After Dark, the bold and insightful podcast where three powerhouse women in planning and development—Alex Notay, Catriona Riddell, and Jackie Sadek—shine a light on the industry’s biggest challenges, trends, and, yes, even a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip.
With decades of experience shaping policy, leading major urban regeneration projects, and influencing government decisions, these experts bring candid conversations, deep insights, and refreshing perspectives to the world of planning. From navigating the complexities of development to debating the future of our cities, Planning After Dark is the no-holds-barred discussion you won’t want to miss.
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Planning After Dark
From Policy to Delivery: Housing, Planning and Devolution
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In this episode of Planning After Dark, Catriona Riddell, Jackie Sadek and Alex Notay take stock of a busy summer for housing, planning and devolution, from Matthew Pennycook’s promotion and the new NPPF to new powers for England’s mayors.
The panel examines the government’s ambition to tackle rough sleeping and homelessness, arguing that lasting progress will require much more than providing accommodation. Health, social care, prisons, charities and local government will all need to work together, alongside greater investment in affordable and council housing.
They also discuss the challenge of turning housing ambition into delivery, including local authority capacity, funding pressures, public-private partnerships and the need to give councils and public bodies greater freedom to manage risk and try new approaches.
The new NPPF is broadly welcomed, but attention now turns to implementation. The panel argues that planners need the confidence to use professional judgement and creativity rather than waiting for policy to prescribe every answer.
Devolution runs throughout the conversation, with new mayoral planning powers and spatial development strategies offering an opportunity to better connect housing, infrastructure, investment and economic growth.
The episode also explores housing “rightsizing”, the work of the Radix Housing Commission and Jackie’s handover of leadership at the UK Innovation Corridor.
As the political agenda moves into a busy autumn, the message is clear: the policies are arriving, but now comes the harder part of delivering them.
Get in touch! Message us at ask@planningafterdark.co.uk
Planning After Dark is the bold and insightful podcast where three powerhouse women in planning and development - Alex Notay, Catriona Riddell, and Jackie Sadek - shine a light on the industry’s biggest challenges, trends, and, yes, even a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip.
From navigating the complexities of development to debating the future of our cities, Planning After Dark is the no-holds-barred discussion you won’t want to miss.
Powered by Cratus Group, new episodes drop monthly on all major streaming platforms.
Planning After Dark is powered by Kratos Group, the consultancy that lives and breathes local government. Whether it's regeneration, housing delivery, or political strategy, Kratos helps councils and partners shape the future. Learn more at Kratos.co.uk.
SPEAKER_03Hello everyone. This is Planning After Dark. We are back as a threesome again. Yay! I am Katrina Riddell and I am joined by my fabulous fabulous co-hosts Alex Note. Jackie Sadek. Yay! We missed you the last time. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's my first day back from hole, so obviously this isn't making the uh painful re-entry into the world of work a bit better, being back with you ladies. Good, good.
SPEAKER_03And and the last time we were here, it was on a very important day, wasn't it? We were we were getting messages through telling us who was in, who was out of the cabinet. Andy Burnham was uh everybody was marching up that Downing Street to to number 10 to see if they've had a job or not. And uh the old team are back in town. Yeah, we've got Ange back, Fashion Watch is back, Jackie. Oh great. Didn't she look good? She looked I think she looked a bit gangsterish as she walks, sort of swaggered up down the street with her sunglasses on. I think she looks great. Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_00What do you mean you don't remember? I'm not trying to remember no homework. No, I've been on holiday. I've been I've been deliberately trying not to look at screenshot.
SPEAKER_01She's been having a life, Katrina. That's what's called having a life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, trying very hard not to do. And relief of relief, our friend Mr. Penicook not just retained his job, but but he's been elevated, he gets to sit at the table, a cabinet table now, which is I I guess, I mean, just the importance of his portfolio, and particularly around housing and Andy Burnham's priorities.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and a reflection of how able he is, and it's a richly deserved promotion. And I'm I I think it's marvellous. I think it's the best thing I've heard, really.
SPEAKER_00And I think no, for everyone in the industry, you know, even those people who maybe have not been as much of a fan of the kind of Rainer Penny Cook kind of department, but actually would say the consistency of having people who know the sector, they might not agree with everything, but actually that you know that that familiarity and that expertise is really, really important. Um, I think the important bit is that you know you and I have never been in there, Katrina, but uh Jackie Casim was like how they all fit around it in a what's apparently quite.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a very tight room, and it's a very small room, and it's a very horrible table which is kind of covered up with green bays. You'll have seen pictures of it. But it's minute.
SPEAKER_03And do you all have to actually set the table or does it a sort of second bench behind the one?
SPEAKER_01I've never been in the room when it was actually occupied by the cabinet, but I mean how on earth they all fit in there? I've got no idea at all. And then, of course, you've got all the civil servants sitting in the cheap seats at the back, you know. So I say the back, I mean the back is literally two foot behind the table, you know. So I mean, I I I just don't know how it all works. It's not it's not the most functional building in the world, number 10 Downing Street, and you know, and I would hope that number 10 north is a more functional space in which to govern from.
SPEAKER_03Have you seen any pictures of Cabinet?
SPEAKER_00Cabinet they've got a Larry the Cat um uh cardboard cut out. I I I I know I I applaud the oh so my thing's on the um Divolution thing. I applaud the kind of genuine commitment to the regional focus. I have massive questions about the cost of just the security alone in like a building and just like the travel and going up and down. You know, I do think you know there is a reason that you know previous prime ministers have had to be in one location and haven't been allowed to do things like go to the football or whatever that they would normally have done because I'd say if if they're managing to do that, then fine. I was talking to um somebody on holiday who's going, I just don't understand why they couldn't have a number 10 south as well, like Cornwall or Devonil or some kind of the regional. Cornwall would love that. Well, no, right, exactly. But there's an there is anything of going not everywhere, the the devolution model of Manchester that has had so many successes and some failures, but you know, it isn't going to be the one that works for everyone. And I think you know, they are I think working really hard to try and articulate the kind of difference of models. You know, Andy Burnham made a point of going to see our friend Helen Godwin at Weka very, very early in his first week, and that's great. And and and talking about doing things differently. But I I do think for it's interesting talking to people who aren't in the industry but who live in other bits of the country, there's a kind of like Scotland is what I would say is north.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, there's that too, right? North is North. They have got their own parliament, but they're still part of the UK government. And when you talk about number 10 north, you sort of personally I would think north north, not exactly halfway up the country. But they've got some really good things.
SPEAKER_01You know, don't sacrifice the good to the best. I mean, it was sent a great signal. Number 10 North sent a great signal, and I do take the point about the southwest, but uh yeah, I I'm sorry, but I you know, there had to be something that happened quickly that sent a good signal, the right signal, and I think it was the right signal.
SPEAKER_03And he lives there.
SPEAKER_01I mean you know, I'm not sure that's a justification, Katrina. You know, I can see, you know, in terms of yeah.
SPEAKER_00But that's the bit that I don't like about it. It's like saying, you know, ever so many PMs who would might have wanted to live at home and had to move. No, it the job you the job is to be there, the job is to govern the tide house. Yeah, and I but I fully applaud the uh the genuine like regional devolution. I think it's so we've been asking for it for ages, it's brilliant. I think Caroline Simpson, who be depth to chief of staff and was running the Manchester Combined Authority, is fantastic. So no, I fully applaud all of that. I just have a little bit of a that whole optics of oh, he basically wants to go home and sleep in his own bed. Well, that's not the job, mate. You should be here. So I don't know. I I'm I'm willing to be convinced, but there is just a bit of me kind of going, I like the symbolism, I like the the you know the commitment to genuine regionalisation, but actually the cost bit when we're thinking we know things are so flipping tight. I'm like, really? Is that the best thing? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's gonna be interesting, isn't it? We've got we're we're early days. I mean, it doesn't feel like it, and we'll come on to that. I mean, August has been extremely busy for the government, it there's been no let up at all. We've had a lot more announcements on on loads of things than I think anybody expected. We thought they would sort of huckle down over August and then come back with a big bang in September, but no, we've had loads and some of which we were speculating in our when we were talking to Rose and Jack in the the last episode around the housing stuff. I mean, so let's sort of um unpack a little bit about where we are in these very early days. Um, you know, we've we've had some really horrible figures recently announced about it's gone up to about 180,000 kids now in temporary accommodation. Uh we talked about the rough sleeping initiative. We're seeing a little bit more sort of um details around what what expectations are, what his time scale is. So where are we, Jackie? Are we are we happy with some of the announcements so far?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh, you know, as as we rehearsed last time, Katrina, this is a bold, bold pledge that he's made here. I was very struck when Rose Rose Grayston said to us last time, we are only talking about 15,000 people, it can't be beyond the wit of humankind. And I get that completely, but you know, people have tried before and failed. We had this, uh we talked about this last time, but we can't go on the way we are. Apparently, we have the worst homelessness problem in the Western world.
SPEAKER_03Shocking us.
SPEAKER_01Um and well, I know that rough sleeping isn't quite the same as the homelessness problem, but it's a massive problem. So apparently he's announced a £442 million national drive, most of which I understand is new money, um, genuine new money, to get everyone in by Christmas, right? Uh of which 330 million goes on accommodation, and there's a further 102 million that's been put towards medical care, help with support with addiction and so forth. Um I mean it's a very bold pledge and it's a very visible pledge, and we understand why he's done it. And I wish I wish the guys every success in tackling this, getting everybody in by Christmas. But you know, as experts in this field do keep pointing out, you can't force people into accommodation. And uh, I don't know whether you I've been watching over the summer the the rerun of of our friends in the north, and there's a very poignant scene there where Geordie Peacock, who's played by Daniel Craig, it was his breakthrough role. Oh gosh, um uh gets uh asked to come in and and sleep the night. He's homeless and he's been homeless for some years, and he's been living on the streets, and he's um he gets asked to keep come in by Tosca and his missus to come in and you know use their luxury spare bedroom, and he comes into this beautifully appointed room and he ends up making a nest on the floor with covers. And apparently that is fairly standard behaviour from home, you know, people who are rough sleepers aren't used to and need help in re-acclimatising themselves to proper bedroom, proper accommodation. And I I thought it was a very poignant scheme, uh uh scene in in our friends from the north, and I have to say it's not a straightforward thing. And what worries me about it is that he's set himself up here, it's that he's you know he's got till Christmas to do this, and I just I'm not sure whether we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna be able to deliver it.
SPEAKER_00Well, there was that thing around Covid, wasn't there? They did actually get everybody in, got them into everybody then out again. So it's it's that kind of fine, you can set these arbitrary deadlines and maybe you'll hit it, and that's lovely. But the the thing it made me think of is similar to that, but the you know, the Home Woods Foundation, the um Prince and Princess of Wales have their kind of foundation and they do a lot on on homelessness. And they did a really good documentary a couple of years ago, but they looked at the scheme, you know, the housing first thing is actually a Finnish programme. Yes, and and they do it in in I think it was in Cardiff or Santi, but there was a really striking case there with a very articulate gentleman who was a veteran, so he had real deep trauma, PTSD, um, but had also had been in accommodation um and there'd been a terrible fire. And he and you know, he'd been injured rescuing some people, some people had survived, some hadn't. But he was so intensely traumatised by that exposure that actually being inside was the issue of him. So not only did he not want a bed for the night inside, he didn't want to be in a shop, he didn't want he didn't want to be in a building, he did not feel safe. And that it's that level of complex support, it's not just the addiction and all the other things which we need to fund and we need to support people with. It's you know the real complexity, I know as you alluded, like the specialists in homelessness support, go actually the see the individual, treat them as a person, but recognise that for some of those people it isn't a bed for the night or a roof for the night, it's it's something much more complicated.
SPEAKER_01And it's going to take a massive collaboration, right, across various authorities and across various how agencies and departments. So charities and charity and the third sector, absolutely. And the way that Andy Burnham did it, and um, you know, we we talked about this last time with the greater Manchester area was by getting up massive collaboration across the ten councils that it he had. There's also got to be collaboration with the prison service. We talked about that. It's got to be collaboration with with with the with the health service, with adult social care. I mean, all the the whole and it's that putting together that enormous collaboration, I think it's going to be painstaking.
SPEAKER_03And the children's social care is not a good thing.
SPEAKER_01Well, indeed, and then you've got people on the streets. You've got to track people and you've got to make sure that landlords aren't issuing no fault evictions, and you've got to do all the whole gamut of things, and there's just there's a shed load to it. And there might only be 15,000 people, but they're very, very visible, and not to put too far on a point in them, that each of them, and Alex has just demonstrated this admirably, each of them is probably suffering from very intractable problems. You know, why would you be on the streets unless you had intractable problems? You know, so that it's a very deep-seated problem.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and it's a systems as as we as we keep talking about, you know, it's a sister old systems approach that's needed to tackle that. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how much goes to the likes of shelter and crises and uh the real chart, because that's where the expertise on these things really sits, and how much it'll be down to civil servants who are, you know, administrators and don't necessarily understand the real problems.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'm very funny. I've spent some time with the chief executive of shelter and crisis, and they're both brilliant individuals, but there is um again, it's a little bit like I used to did some work a long time ago in the kind of international aid to sort of development sector where I used to kind of facilitate some workshops for them. And one of the big challenges is that actually charities don't often work well together, so there's a bit of like competitiveness on the sort of even if they're there to kind of solve the same issue, you know, they're fighting for funding, they're fighting for staff, they're fighting for expertise. But and I think it's fair to say that particularly within the homelessness bit, I think there has been historically su some tensions around you know different approaches and different ways of doing it. But I think you've got real expertise now with things like you know, centre point do such amazing work, and um I think those charities are are working much better as a kind of collective in the same space, but there are lots of examples, unfortunately, of where you know charities are actually too busy competing to actually really be focusing on the end game.
SPEAKER_03I don't think that's the case anymore, but I mean we've got a 10-year plan coming, it's gonna set out what his 10-year plan is. We've been promised a 10-year housing plan for a long term.
SPEAKER_00No, no, so it means to be end of spring. I think we're well past what year.
SPEAKER_01Even in government terms, you think the end of August is well past the end of spring.
SPEAKER_00Even in government terms, we are past that. That that that deadline has sailed past don't exactly.
SPEAKER_03So they they're gonna have to join the dots up on a lot of this, aren't they? You know, uh as we keep talking about, you know, in terms of house building, it's not just a planning issue. There's a load of other things in housing and homelessness, it's not just a homelessness issue. So we've you know, we'll we'll see. I hope he's got some really good people behind him. I hope he's got some really good special advisors.
SPEAKER_00You know, there's been a bit of a clear out there, so hopefully he's um But I know a few people who've gone in and I can never get not full spads, but he's got there's a whole kind of different category of advisor that's been created. And I know a couple of people who've gone into roles that who are really interesting, but you know, infrastructure expertise, bigger picture delivery. So yeah, I think that you know that I like that they are bringing in voices that aren't just party political ones.
SPEAKER_03I I think one of my uh again we'll see where this goes, you know, the announcement about sending a whole load of civil servants into the the mail teams. Uh most of the mayoral teams seem to be run by ex-civil servants anyway. But you know, I think that's great from a central government perspective, sharing the the resources, but it also, you know, we want a different culture, a different approach. And if we're just sort of replicating central government culture, you've seen it a bit in Home England.
SPEAKER_00We know we've talked a bit before. Amy Reese, I think, and you know, you were right, Josh. She's she's really coming as a fantastic chief of deck and is clearly very well regarded, and uh and they have hired quite a lot of senior servants from MHCLG and Treasury, but they have also made some really senior director appointments with people with external you know banking and expertise, and that it'll be really interesting to see how that organisation and the National Housing Bank come together with that that mix because the way of doing things is going to be so so different. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And we need, I mean, god, we need a bit more um imagination, a bit a bit more thinking differently around some of these. You know, a lot of the the old ways of doing things haven't worked. So we need we need a little bit of creativity in these organisations. So uh let's see what happens there. So, what else have we had announced? You know, what where are we going with the the affordable housing, the big promises around council housing? Have we seen much more in terms of how that's gonna be delivered?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I haven't, but I think you've been in holiday. I've been on holiday, but but what I would say is that the thing that sort of niggles at me is the the kind of kicking the ball down the road of the confirmation on the social and affordable homes program. I'm sure that must be enormously frustrating for the people in Homes England who work on it, but it's also really brutal for the you know, the RPs who were told at UK Reef back in when we were in Leeds May to kind of having been told to be ambitious to then reduce their programmes and you're still waiting, and then you know the knock-on effect that that has on a number of house builders and SMEs who are also still waiting, it's it's really unhelpful. I I have again in the financial environment that we're in, I just have a concern that as laudable as the the bring back council housing campaign when you know Jackie literally wrote the book on it, so you should do that in a minute. But is where's the new money coming from? I just I I I worry trying to reallocate this SAP, which is already smaller than it needs to be and not enough for what and and for schemes that were consented and were ready to go. If you're gonna have to rejig it and recut it, and again their viability has got even harder, just means less is getting delivered. And I just like I'd like some clarity on that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Jackie? Well, quite a lot's been forced onto this devolution um response, hasn't it? So I had the municipal journal on the or I should must learn to call them the MJ. They re-re- relaunched themselves as the MJ, didn't they? About in about 1806, and I didn't notice.
SPEAKER_03Um I had like I had the council networking. Well, I and I I can't help myself really.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm an old, I'm an old bird. Um I had them on the other day asking me um whether uh as a result of the push to devolution we should see the the the the agencies, the government agencies being disbanded and by which they meant homes England. Are we going to basically push the whole of Homes England out into the devolved authorities? Now I think that would make some sense, I have to say. Well, absolutely, but I'm I do take Alex's point. The stuff that was on in, you know, actually in the pipeline is now being put on hold. Again. That's not again, that's not good. That's not a good signal. And I don't think, and I'm I'm I don't I've if Alex hasn't seen it, it won't have happened. There is there is no meat on the bones of the council housing uh strategy. I God knows I applaud the strategy. I can't see that we've got any other strategy. I cannot see how in any any external analysis you can't look at the housing scenario in the UK and realise that the last time we didn't have a housing crisis was when the state directly intervened in council housing. You know, I am a full advocate of the fact that the three pillars of social policy should be health, how education, and housing. I mean, I absolutely, I I I would die on a die on the on a hill about that. But I can't, there's no meat on the bones. And I would like to see an awful lot more meat on the bones and an awful lot more, a proper program of you know, training up, you know, perhaps in terms of the fact as Alex alluded to earlier on, local authorities do not have the the borough architect, the borough engineer, the borough surveyor anymore. But you could potentially have SWAT teams, a bit like the Atlas team, who come in with these skills with two local authorities, and there's only about half of them have actually got any land, but those half could actually do quite a lot. You could start with those and you could put in teams to actually, you know, empower them to bring their land for forward for housing in a very direct sort of way.
SPEAKER_00You could also use the partnership model and just be more efficient with it. Like I I I fully applaud that, yeah, bring back council boding and direct delivery, but the proportion of local authorities that have any capacity is it to be able to do that, as you said, is pretty small. And I also don't think it's about stopping there, the things that are working as hard as it is, you know, that partnership model that a lot of the the small, you know, the Hill group, the Vistry have have pioneered, it does work. Like in Bristol, you know, Hill are delivering on a site that people have had a go at for decades. No, ditto in Harlem, you know, and so we've seen it in Newcastle. And I there is a bit of me that kind of is slightly nervous, especially when we've got so many authorities with no overall control, so you've got this real uncertainty of being able to push things through. Where actually those established things where you you can get the public sector to work with the private sector really effectively, they're not the evil bad guys. Yes, they're gonna make return, but they are gonna deliver you really high quality, sometimes 100% affordable, sometimes just a very high proportion. And I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water because the sum is better than none. And my worries that I would love to do if they could triage it the way you suggested, Jack, and actually have that. These are the councils that have the land, have some staffing, have you know a budgetary situation that can support doing something new and like and then yeah, let's start there and let's really focus on those ones rather than trying to do this thing of all things must happen in all places because it's just not really.
SPEAKER_01And then share best practice, you know. This is where I, you know, I start to sound like the cracked record. I don't care, you know. I I share best practice, you know, do some stuff that can be replicated.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think you know, the more I think about it, the more uh planning after dark royal commission.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that would work. I mean, I think I think we'd have to put you in charge on that.
SPEAKER_03I think between the three of us and all our contacts, we could we could sort this.
SPEAKER_00I think this could be been one of your AI illustrations of you with the crown on.
SPEAKER_01I haven't done that one yet. When we do when we do the Royal Commission, the Pad Pod Royal Commission, can we leave a fashion watch and and the Kariqi at the door?
SPEAKER_03No, no, that that that is part and parcel of it, I'm afraid. Um I have to try. Yeah. So, Housen, a lot a lot more answers still needed and a lot more detail needed, but it is early days. We've had quite a lot already, and uh, you know, shifting on to a little bit to the the big planning ones, a week of planning announcements. The MPPF was snuck out in a DEFRA uh press release about water and drought. Um how did that happen? Why was it in a DEFRA one? Uh well, I guess the Prime Minister um put it out, uh wanted to respond to the drought issues and the fact that the MPPF was ready to go, they thought they might as well mention it.
SPEAKER_01Well, concise, thank God it's out. It's great, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they didn't have to wait. I mean, there was there was sort of a a few eyebrows raised about oh how did they put that out? Shouldn't we be debating this in parliament? And we're like, well, it's been debated to to death, you know, just get the thing out there. So that was great. And then we had announcements which we can talk about in terms of mayors um today, hot off the press today. Um her hands were on hands on the telly.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic shot of Katrina. Hands my nose. Did you see the close-up of my nose as well? I was like, that was a bit more than I didn't get any ideas if we get it was really strange editing. It was very good.
SPEAKER_01You were extremely good, but the the shot of your hands, I mean very beautiful hands that they are, yeah, was a bit bizarre.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, it was a little bit strange, but we'll come to that. Um let's MPPF uh seems to be universally uh supported, and people are very impressed that the the government seems to have listened to the consultation. We've even got things, little things, but really important things like three of the policies now refer to women specifically about women's safety, um safe in and play areas for child for women and children and girls. And and you know that that is is a tiny wee win with bigger. impact for a lot of people. We've got a lot of changes. There's one for me personally in terms of the spatial development strategies, there's just one paragraph right at the beginning that helps deal with some of the real anxiety we had about um a lot of the policies and everything that's being pushed into the SDS and that one paragraph that's been put in there now really helps enforce the fact that these are high level don't try and put absolutely everything into it and mission pr prevent mission creep. So we've we've had some debates around what's in there in viability and all sorts of I mean what what what have you heard? You've been in holiday so I don't suppose you've been reading about it.
SPEAKER_00No but do you know what I did what did please that I saw it I it popped up on the BBC and in the Times that A that it was covered. It's in my skim through the news that I remember you know it wasn't just in the trade press. So that to me was important that it was and it was broadly written about in a way you know you know quite often when you read about something from our industry in the news and you're like oh my god they've got the wrong end of everything there and that's you know they've used the wrong definition or you know with built to rent it was always a really cla clunky so actually what I read I was like oh this is great it's actually quite well well understood it's been distilled and it's featuring in the press and that's a really good thing. Um I think in terms of our membership so we've obviously looking at the kind of consultation responses I think people are eager to see this turn into action and those clarifications you mentioned are really welcome. I'll be interested to see what you kind of think about the link into all the infrastructure stuff that we normally talk about because that is definitely what I'm hearing about a lot more. So you know people concerned about you know the whole data centers competing for sites or you know power or infrastructure that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah there's there's there's a lot to chew over there and it you know I think we're I've read all the blogs and the summaries and uh the all see positive things but as you said the proofs and the the the actual implementation what do you think Jackie?
SPEAKER_01The the idea of you sitting there reading all the blogs I mean you are you are sad you're the desperately sad woman really aren't you but I no look I seriously I would rather see a quiet gentle landing of this rather than a low load of you know belts and whistles sound and fury I I think I think the way it's come out is excellent. I'm glad we're not hanging about on it. I mean you know the very fact of the matter is we just need to quietly get on and implement it now.
SPEAKER_03I think the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the eating the proof of the whatever the expression is the proof of the pudding is in the eating and I and I think and I think we've just got to land it now and I would just put in one plea which is you know having been very close to Greg Clark's NPPF the original NPPF um it wasn't that it wasn't a splendid document it was a seriously splendid document it just wasn't implemented properly and I would just say and this is I think Matt's big um challenge now is Matt for goodness sake get your get your policy which you've worked so hard on get it implemented properly yeah yeah yeah I mean I I I wrote my mag my column for planning magazine on Friday you know five days after it had been published and I was desperately thinking well what do I say everybody you know said what needs to be said and I think for me uh what's for me the biggest challenge and it's around the implementation is I've heard a few people say but it doesn't say this it doesn't tell me to do this and as a as a profession it filled me with absolute horror because I think we are a creative profession profession it has enough hooks in there for us to do a really good job we shouldn't be told that if it doesn't tell you what to do around specifically around certain things it doesn't mean you don't do it but you find a way of doing it you think creatively and use professional skills and you think well you know so I think you're absolutely right some of this is about culture um another person said to me well how do we how do we stop this and again my view is we've again we've covered this and I'm really sorry planning lawyers again but it's about the risk you know people do they want to be told to what to do because they want to reduce the risks of failure.
SPEAKER_01Some people are going to fail with this but that's how we learn isn't it but this is a symptom and we've had this also as a current theme through this pad pod ever since we started it it's a symptom of the fact that the the sector is disempowered and ground down and hasn't got the courage of its convictions and really what we've got to do is to help our young particularly our young planners to come through and understand that they this does not mean you abdicate common sense what you've got there as you say is all the hooks all the tools you need you've just got to get in there and creatively find the solution.
SPEAKER_00But it does something if you want to work in finance I'm saying you know it it's been so dominated now by compliance because you know bad behavior that actually what used to be quite an interesting profession is become absolutely tick box tick box you know very very biro and actually you know it's always dangerous to talk about creative accounting but you know that there should be an element to like structure a deal come up with something innovative do something interesting and that should whether it's planning or finance or any any like procurement it's not about like erasing all risk it's about managing risk in a sensible way and having that flex to like it's like you said it doesn't have to be spelt out every single scenario but you should be able to use your creativity and your colleagues and expertise of people around you to come up with some solutions and I think we've brought up our children we've brought up our children in a way we've always said we've all three of us have said and all the most of the people of our generation are saying to our children it's okay to fail.
SPEAKER_01You know you have a go it's okay to fail I'm not sure that our planners have been told that I think that I think that's I think that's very fair.
SPEAKER_03I was interested in um I don't usually read the Conservative home but somebody did draw attention to was it about planning because you'd have had to have read it if it was about planning. It was well it was uh uh Lord Banner has written a piece um uh about how good the MPPF is and that the cons that a lot of what's in there is what the Conservatives have been saying around housing and things and how actually maybe it's time now to get behind uh some of the stuff that the current government are doing. And again we've had this discussion in the Raddocks Commission around you know this this shouldn't be about politics you know providing homes for people that need it is not about politics.
SPEAKER_00And it's the same that whole investment conversation is no investors are you know yes they're trying to make a profit no that is not a bad thing but also they are particularly if they're investing other people's money they've got a responsibility to do it but they don't necessarily want an easy road and be able to do exactly what they want. They they don't mind the rules and the processes but they want relative speed of decision relative clarity on what the terms of the decision are and that the goalposts aren't going to move or be retrospectively applied. You know so actually having some certainty in those things that does catalyse investment and activity way more and it's what we've been asking for for ages. So again I think it's as Jackie's been a fight let's get using it and show show the investment market that actually the ride through the planning process in the UK yeah it was a nightmare but now it can be better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I think that's true. So the other big announcement and let's go on to mayors because I I suspect we're gonna hear an awful lot about devolution in mayors and you know I think the part of um Andy Burnham's roadshow over the last couple of weeks has probably been speaking to leaders about when they're going to move into the set text yet if mayors ruled the world oh read it last time still not read it it's on my bookshelf I'm gonna read it and we've got some prospective mayors coming on the show some other mayoral content um over uh the next sort of few months but you know we are going to hear an awful lot more about mayors we had again another big announcement um this morning in the form of the implementing the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act around the mayoral planning powers and you know it's it's I've been spouting this for ages about the SDSEs are so important but actually the things that will make the difference are these powers that the mayor's going to have to actually deliver and support delivery um so that's the first bit out Mr Pennycook has um sent that out to everybody today that's what I was talking about yesterday in a field in the heat walking up and down a so let me just get this straight.
SPEAKER_01ITV filmed you for half an hour walking up and down a field and then they and then they zoomed in on my hands they put out two minutes including a long shot of your hands as well I mean they used at least a little bit of what I said that for me was an important point.
SPEAKER_03And again it was around the the the decreasing the risk reducing the risk and that's what this is all about but yeah it was a strange experience and in fact they wanted to come out to me to do it. We could have been it could have been in my house and sorry you know I hope you put your washing away well that was my panic about it when they said we're coming to you and I thought oh my goodness A I've got to sort of get dressed in something and and thank you for your advice Alex for those that do watch fashion watch Alex was fantastic. She advised me on not to wear patterns not to wear jangly earrings all sort of really useful information and advice and I I followed that but yeah that was a very interesting experience I was on what everybody should do on a Sunday morning is puff it up and down a hill up and down a hill with ITV in pursuit I love it. I absolutely love it. Well the dog walkers walking by going what on earth are they filming? So I I should say and this I I guess I mean I chose the place that's next to me but it's it's also from a planning perspective quite an interesting area because it's a very nice viewpoint where I live but it's also slam back right in the middle of a Taylor Wimpe prospective housing site which is currently it's been refused and has gone to appeal and it's been a bit of a battle it's greenbelt a bit of greenbelt that separates London and Surrey very protected um by the local community they've had a very long battle for about 10 years over this but the site is now at appeal and it will probably get permission it's grey belt um so it's going to be interesting but I thought that was quite nice context. Well it's very good context it's just a shame that not that was not made clear if they didn't pan over and said this might all be housing very soon.
SPEAKER_01Could have been in any field in the country Katrina but a very lovely shot of your hand very good. So what do we think devolution is is is he doing the right thing you know is is is this the only way we're going to crack some of these issues well you know I mean I've been drinking the Kool-Aid on devolution for for over a decade and I well longer and I you know you you won't find you know a cigarette paper between me and the devolution uh the strategy I mean I I am all for it uh I look the there's always a risk isn't there there's always a risk you know you push power out of Whitehall into the into the regions then you know you you you are taking an enormous and a lot of power in individuals as well that's power in individuals you are taking an enormous gamble I think it's a gamble worth taking right every successful country in in Europe is a devolved country you know that does doesn't rely solely on one global city with a third world country hanging off its arse you know I mean sorry but that is where we are isn't it I mean you know it uh you know we things aren't working as they stand we have to try something different and better um there's gonna be hiccups and problems along the way it goes back to the whole thesis of allow your children to fail you're gonna have to make mistakes in order to learn and I and I but I think this is the only way we can go forward as a country.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and that's just you know we've talked about you know I think we're all pro-devolution we've called for it a lot so yeah I'm really I commend them for getting on with it and giving it a go. I think that permission to fail thing is a really really key thing it's one of my real bugbears with any kind of government thing that they're not they're not allowed to okay of course you don't need to misuse public money or to be profligate with it but there's got to be a thing where it can fail. Like so this is the real bind that a previous situation of Homes England got itself into where they couldn't invest in a thing that couldn't give a guarantee button yeah sometimes if you're going to be a catalyst in a risk averse of things isn't it again that they can invest loads into central Manchester because but they still can't invest in Blackburn and literally I remember sitting on webinars with like a local authorities in the local pension fund and a guy from the the local authority going well when are you coming to invest here? And the guy from Homes England being very we just can't we can't make it stack in our model something in that has got to give where public m money has to be allowed obviously within parameters and well managed but to take risky investment and I think that is what the creation of National Housing Bank is actually trying to do. It's trying to give it a more kind of um comprehensive lens across that equity and the debt side and be able to do that. So you know that's optimistic. I do think we do need to come back to the the bit we talked about maybe one of our earliest episodes around when the when the policies a around Evo were being kind of set up none of us had any idea about the kind of fragmentation of the political parties. Yeah. And you know the number of of authorities with no control. You know I think it's good that reform are being asked to take and Greens are being asked to take leadership because actually you've got to learn by doing it's harder than it looks it's very easy to stand outside throwing things. But I I do think that the I have a slight concern that that the the regulations such as they stand perhaps weren't designed and w they didn't even consider the the idea of the very fragmented politics that we have and I worried that some things could come across with there because it was just written in as an assumption that there'd be a a majority.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And it's gonna be I mean well we we are definitely going to be coming back to this in in future episodes because we're gonna have to acknowledge that there is a tour to your system you know if you go down the mayoral route you get an awful lot more goodies you get a lot more funding you get a more a lot more influence you get direct control over delivering housing and infrastructure and Helen Godwin when we interviewed her you know was really really articular I felt as an explaining you know West of England we missed all of that because of the but she's now credit to her pushed through got an agreement got a kind of strategic partnership and you know is getting that funding for the South West and that's huge. And that's where investors are going to go right you know investors are going to go where the mayors are they're not gonna go where you've got local authorities who are not working together who are not interested in devolution and therefore not interested in getting the goodies so you know the investors and a decision making they want leadership they want decision making they want security um you know all the things we've talked about.
SPEAKER_00So we'll come back to this we are as always running out of time we've got some some quick uh news roundups Raddock's uh commission housing commission is chairman chairman chair chair chairs chair sorry in the chair sorry chair chair although yeah that that to be fair is so yes we were in the telegraph and they called me a chairman and I had a bit of a hissy fit about it but it's funny did you have a hissy fit did you that smoke I just said to I said to the ward of France that he's the wonderful press I just call you boss at Raddix at Radix and I was like and he went look the the journalist is really apologetic it's just the telegraph stars oh it's a telegraph even the journalist who wrote it was like anyway um no tell us about the big report so let's see we had a really lovely uh summer party at commons which was great um with all of the different commissions there because Radix is kind of going great guns on lots of things but um we also launched the right sizing report which we should all kind of pay tribute to the wonderful Lord Richard Best who has been waving the mag on this for ages and to Jackie who chaired a fantastic everyone who's been at it always comes up to me and says how brilliant it was and I was like there's nothing to do with me I wasn't there. Jackie did it but um that right sizing report has um had amazing coverage it's been in the telegraph which is clearly the kind of target market has stimulated a really interesting debate around kind of equalising stamp duty for you know those end end of nearer end of life buyers versus uh kind of first time the people that want to party a little bit more exactly haven't they've got the time to do it uh Lord Richard was on you and yours and Radio Force and it's having great coverage and just I think prompting the debate so that's been something really really good to to talk about um and yeah we need to figure out some of the next stuff but it's really interesting seeing the commission's continuing to grow some of the members are doing a little site visit around um Manchester this week I think which I know I can't get to but yeah there's a really some great conversations happening and I really enjoy the mix of people again because it's all different political parties it's all very kind of mix isn't it of expertise. But again it highlights that thing that I keep wagging on about the ecosystem all the time but yeah because we don't do that enough as as a sex we're very clicky.
SPEAKER_01I think the right sizing stuff is really getting traction I have to say uh I thought Lord Best was phenomenally good on you and yours and really made the case and very helpfully they had a case study of somebody who'd done some right sizing you know and it was a very good case study. I mean just to say I know that my mother has to put in an appearance on this podcast on a regular basis that she she's now out of the nursing centre you'll be delighted to hear and back home and has taken up residence in her downstairs bedroom where she has a little ensuite and a shower and obviously lives now in her downstairs bedroom and the and the sitting room but of course that means there's three bedrooms upstairs you know that are sitting there literally you know well they are full of stuff but let's not go there but they are vacant and unoccupied and even she at 93 tomorrow is now saying um you know what why why is this this such a waste of my home it's such a you know why why you know why have we got a homelessness problem when I've when I'm sitting in all these empty bedrooms uh I have to say I would really like to see the government move very big big style into this agenda. I had a correspondent on on uh LinkedIn now as you know I'm pretty rubbish on LinkedIn but a very very nice bloke called Joel Hagan came to me to say um vis-a-vis downsizing uh full support of what radics are doing and have to say I can prove it's tax neutral uh or downsizing relief could be tax neutral. I've asked him to provide more details on that because obviously we need to know but I if if I was Andy Burnham on my housing policy I'd be moving into this big style. And I have to say also if I was the BBC I'd be emulating the great success they've had with Sort Your Life out and dear old Stacy Solomon there going around sorting out people's clutter I'd get I'd get somebody of a certain age to be not Stacy Solomon but somebody somewhat older than Stacy Solomon who could be a bit more empathetic about folk of a certain age to go and help people maybe Jackie we're pitching you a TV show Jack I I could I could be persuaded to do television. I could flash my hands on television I mean just somebody could do a really cracking television programme about how to clear it you know how to get somebody support for clearing out your attic support for clearing out your garage support for finding the right property support and finding your way through the minefield of stamp duty relief and whatever it is I could tell because I've got TV experience now. Well now that you're an accomplished TV person uh and your hands in particular could start I think if the government was to put some sort of fiscal incentive in there. I agree I think it's a you know I'm I was very struck by the round table that I chaired for for Alex and Lord Best that you know if folk have put a put a plan together by the time they're 75 then first of all they tend to have to then implement it and secondly they all say it's the best thing they ever did. And and my mother is now totally oppressed by the fact that she's got a garage full of stuff and an attic full of stuff and three bedrooms full of stuff all of which needs sorting out and that's making it as well I mean she's so anxious about all of that. Why why put people through that I mean you can help people and then liberate more housing stock which is and I have to keep saying this already built isn't so we've got that we're gonna direct people to Radic's big tent website it's all there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and right sizing and I think it was right sizing not downsizing again and that thing that's really important because I think there was that that backlash that a lot of older people feel of being trying to squeeze into the corner and made to go and actually it's that point of wanting to continue to live your life in it in the in the right space and it may not be you know moving into a very very small husband it might be a slightly smaller or a different layout or a different you know but it is freeing up the unused space in those homes that's that's really important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And Jackie to finish off old change at UK innovation corridor you've done your time well I you know I did I did I did my I've done my yeah I've done my I was just gonna think I've done my three years and uh I was absolutely thrilled that um uh a very very strong field to be my successor uh applied to come in and and we've appointed or they've appointed Peter Hogg uh you'll know director of cities for arcadist you couldn't get a much more knowledgeable big hitter than him really big feet big feet to fill though Jackie big shoes you big shoes sorry I meant big shoes about five feet because you've been showing off your hands that need to be meant to be someone else I need you to know I'm very sensitive about my feet because I size seven feet when I was 13 and I was always very very sensitive and very self-aware about my feet so you've now touched on a very sensitive point. Look I don't think he's got that big shoes to fill but I have to say I'm very very happy to be handing over to such a worthy successor. I have got succession planning wrong in the past and I'm very very happy that it hasn't gone wrong this time round. And as you know the Innovation Corridor is a fabulous project and you know the closest thing the UK has got to a Silicon Valley and it long may it continue.
SPEAKER_00And I think kudos to you as Katrine says because actually the fact that it was such a strong field and people as you know as well regarded and senior as as piece kind of up went for it is because you have turned it into something that you did not have that profile three years ago you know and you I know we've been spinning around it for a long long time but you know you have you have done some stellar work on that. So take the credit message.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_01I mean it is the only one that survived the cold well it just goes to show the power of a bottom up self-financing partnership we're not depending on government money you know we can't be cut off at a ri at a whim and it won't be going for 15 years. What this means is that actually it's a very resilient model.
SPEAKER_03Yeah absolutely so we've had a bit of a uh a skirt around some uh messages uh new consultations has been August has been incredibly busy uh for for a lot of people and the civil servants obviously haven't had or ministers haven't had much of a break and but we are only a week away from parliament returning after their summer break so I suspect in our next episode there's going to be even more to talk about but we will have also two fabulous guests we'll not talk about that too much but there is a a link to mayors and evolution and women and leadership and all of that so I'm really looking forward to that um so we've got probably a very busy autumn coming up we've got the Labour Party conference in September Housing Forum National Conference Forum conference which I am delighted to be part of and and helping we're all speaking at that sorry but but well I was speaking for myself you know are you happy to be speaking thrill we're thrilled I had my arm put around my back I know you had a board meeting and couldn't come but anyway we'll do that coming in the morning that's good yeah so it's in it it's in Cambridge yeah so oh no no no that's a different one oh no that no the other one yeah you'll do anyway we've got stuff happening we've got lots of lots of happening she've not been invited to that one obviously but uh yeah no lots happening it's gonna be a really busy autumn for the for our world um and let's see uh the Mr. Burnham carry on um sending out these positive vibes these positive messages but let's see a little bit moving into detail now and see a bit more about how and not what so delivery delivery delivery this has been another episode of Planning After Dark powered by Creatus it's been a fabulous chat it's been great being back together again um and thank you listeners I should also say thank you to all those that have actually sat and watched us on a video apparently quite a few of you like watching the videos so people enjoy the next this episode thank you thank you
