UKREiiF Reflections, Devolution Debates and the Search for Growth

In this latest episode of Planning After Dark, the PAD Pod Girls are reunited following a busy few weeks across the planning, housing and regeneration world.

Fresh from UKREiiF, Women of Influence celebrations, housing conferences and strategic planning events, Jacqui Sadek, Alex Notay and Catriona Riddell discuss the mood across the sector and ask whether the industry is finally seeing reasons for optimism despite ongoing economic and political uncertainty.

The conversation explores the latest developments in planning reform, devolution, local government re-organisation and the future of New Towns, alongside a frank discussion about viability challenges, resourcing pressures and the capacity of local authorities to deliver growth.

The team also reflect on the changing role of mayors, the importance of strong place leadership, lessons from successful councils, and why storytelling remains one of the most powerful tools available to planners, politicians and place-makers alike.

Along the way, there are reflections on UKREiiF, praise for local government leaders driving change, congratulations for industry award winners, and updates on some of the most exciting initiatives currently taking place across housing, planning and regeneration.

As always, it is part planning masterclass, part therapy session and entirely unfiltered.

Get in touch! Message us at ask@planningafterdark.co.uk

Planning After Dark is the bold and insightful podcast where three powerhouse women in planning and development - Alex Notay, Catriona Riddell, and Jackie Sadek - shine a light on the industry’s biggest challenges, trends, and, yes, even a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip.

From navigating the complexities of development to debating the future of our cities, Planning After Dark is the no-holds-barred discussion you won’t want to miss.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Planning After Dark is powered by Kratos Group, the consultancy that lives and breathes local government. Whether it's regeneration, housing delivery, or political strategy, Kratos helps councils and partners shape the future. Learn more at Kratos.co.uk.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to Planning After Dark, powered by Kratos. I am Katrina Riddell, and I am joined by my fabulous co-hosts Jackie Sadek, Alex Nighty. Thank you. Oh, it's fantastic to be back. We have just come from um a really lovely celebration of Women of Influence, which is run by the Planner magazine. And Jackie was one of this year's women of influence, and we are so proud of her. But she didn't turn up till right at the end, Jackie.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Well, well, look, look, I've got a cast-iron excuse, uh, you know, and and just to say, I mean, I am a woman of influence, guys. You know, I have been named so by the planner magazine. Now, never mind that the my family absolutely rip the piss out of me about this. I am a woman of influence, and I will not let you forget it. Uh, no, I'm I was tickled pink to uh to get the award. No, I did I did turn up. I'm afraid I wasn't on time, and I wasn't on time because I was I am a woman. I'm not just a woman of influence, I am a woman. And I was, of course, like uh a lot of women having to take family responsibilities, settling my old mum into a care home this afternoon, which wasn't great. And uh, you know, uh she is now settled, the old bism, and she's uh happy enough and telling people off and saying she's happy to be there. So that was all very lovely. But I have to say, coming over, feeling total FOMO for about not being at the women of influence gig, you know, with the wonderful Charlotte Morphe and and Rachel Fisher and all the other wonderful women of influence in planning. That's a great tornado. It did remind me of, and this is going to make you roar with laughter, the 1992 general election, when I was sitting up to watch the coverage, and my deputy president when I was at Holy University is a chap called Greg Pope, who'd won his election in I think Blackburn, or I may have not got the constituency right, but anyway, and he was just getting up to make his acceptance speech, and I was just about to burst with pride when my toddler, my two-year-old, started to scream her head off, and I had to go and mind the baby. And it really, and of course, I the it was very tinged for me this whole moment with Greg because of course I consider myself to be as good, if not a better, politician than him. I was the president, he was the deputy president, he was the one that was becoming an MP.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Wait a minute, you were a president of the student union with a two-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

No, no, no, no, this was after, way after I was president of the students union. No, no, I this would have been 92 and I'd have been president of the students union in 81. So a good 11 years later, when he had gone through all the, you know, all the all the you know the Labour Party machine and he was becoming an MP. And I missed his acceptance speech, and apparently it was a cracker, and uh, and because Francis was shouting her head off, and and I remember thinking, you know, why is it me, you know, up to my ears, you know, in in nappy changing, whilst my my deputy president swanning around, you know, having his acceptance speech. I felt a little bit like that this afternoon, having left my poor old mum in a nursing home and having hot footed it over to the to be um at the Women of Influence gig, but it was lovely, and I've got my badge. Your badge.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah. I know those split loyalties are so brutal. And I that was part of the conversation, wasn't it, Katrina, in in the session. We know we had a whole thing about gender mainstreaming and you know, the whole idea around you know the the difference between women's and men feeling safe in in public spaces, but also how certain things like care responsibilities, whether they're for children or elderly relatives, shouldn't be a feminine thing, but they are at the moment. Um, and so there's lots of that discussion, but I'm so pleased, Jackie, that you did make it because it's really important to be recognised for the incredible influence that you do have and have that.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Oh, I might have to be a person that might burst into tears. So that and that and me, poor old mum might burst into tears.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I know, but you know, we can have a celebration. I'm extremely proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I nearly rugby tackled the woman who stood up when I was trying to take the photo of you as you came across the uh the screen and I was trying to take a photo of it for you, and this bloody woman in front of me stood up and I was like, Yeah, so really deserved.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Well I got there in time for the group photo, so that was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Oh, and the wine and the badge. And the badge. Yeah, so we should say we are authentically planning after dark as originally planned, which is where we have had you know a little bit of wine before recording, which I'm sure will just enhance the conversation. As always, as always, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

So, what's been happening? So uh I was in Scotland and you two did an amazing planning after dark live podcast for UK Reef. But you know, it was uh it looked from what I could see from Scotland and all the LinkedIn posts, an amaz I don't know how you survive um at UK Reef. What so what's your take on leads this year? Did it live up to expectations?

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Well, I mean it's a great success, the show, isn't it? Um but I am now at the point whereby I'm finding it so sort of what's the technical term? The term we used to use in in Tesco was overtrading. I don't know if you ever came across that term whereby we say knacker too. No, no, well, it's the but the point, the point at which actually, you know, you've you've traded so well it's become counterproductive and actually you're frightening people away. Yeah, and people aren't coming in through the door because the the the store is too is too is too full. I don't think it happens anymore because of all the technology. But back in my day when we were working in the Tesco uh property team, overtrading was a big old thing. I genuinely think that UK Reef now is overtrading, and I and and I did want to run from pavilion to pavilion, open the door and shout in activity is not validity, guys. Um I you know, I I did find it all a little bit a little bit frenzied and a little bit frenetic. Having said that, I mean, the formidable number of people who are out there trying to grow the British economy is really breathtakingly impressive. And it's just a damn shame we can't bottle it up and and make it work for us. I mean, what do you think, Alex?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I I completely agree. I I think I said when we did our live recording, which I should reiterate what everyone said online, and we said on the night that you know we required two wonderful men to try and replace our Katrina, and it did, you know, they did we uh we we're thank very grateful to both Paul and Gav because they did a brilliant job, but you know, we did miss you, Katrina. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

It was singing, I noticed.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

But those those couple of weeks before MIPIM, I'd been getting very anxious. The market had that real good. That was a bit Freudian. You mean UK Reef, sorry that bit before UK Reef was those two weeks felt really 2008. They felt really sort of looming recession, everything spiraling, really negative. Um, not just the political stuff, but just everything in the market felt really difficult. And actually, so I was I was you know, when we got there on that Monday night in the pouring rain, and we're kind of in this room thinking who's gonna turn up, and actually we had you know packed room, really busting, although very well behaved and attentive. There was no, you know, we had this brilliant room of about 100 people listening to the podcast, and it was great. But um, I came away from Leeds completely knackered, and you're like, there's lots of you know, um, I love people and I love kind of getting together. I think there is a thing about forcing too many people into small spaces that aren't right for it, and it has that whole claustrophobic feeling. But actually, as you said, Jackie, everyone there trying to get stuff done in spite of all the challenges. Yes, we all know the viability is not a nightmare that we we all know there's all these insurmountable challenges with the geopolitical situation, but that you could see that people were just determined to try and work through that and find a way. So there were so many really solutions-focused conversations, not just the kind of I'm pitching my business and here's my chat. It was really like we know this is hard, but here's what we're trying to do. So actually, I came away having slightly lost my voice and being completely knackered, but feeling an awful lot more optimistic than I had done the week before. And so, you know, for that alone, I think it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

But you were sorely missed, Katrina, and we just need to know how many more parties is Graham gonna have.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Oh, I know, I know, I know. Well, so it yeah, it will just keep going until he gets bored, to be honest. Well, till he becomes, until he goes goes next year. I'm not gonna miss next year because I had such FOMO as and I was on the most beautiful island with all my family and everything else, but I had did have serious FOMO. I was watching everything that was happening, you you two messaging me, and I was thinking, I'm really missing out here. I think that I think the thing that struck me was how many people choose that week now to launch something. And I think that's great, but on the other hand, does it get lost in the noise?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

There's a lot of that, and it was interesting. We talked there were over 200 government officials, so you kind of go, Great, all the times that we've said, let them out, let them interact with the market and understand it and kind of you know, because very often, you know, it's that there's no travel budget, they're not allowed to go to things. So that was great. There were loads of ministers, so you know, Matthew Pennick Cook was there, Steve Reed was there, Rachel Reeves came, she didn't ostensibly speak very much. I mean, she came to a dinner and then disappeared, apparently, and a few others. And um, in that classic badly briefed minister kind of way, there was a junior minister who apparently was like, Oh, and we're so delighted to be here in Leeds and gave a speech as if it was all about Leeds City Council. And you're like, you've kind of missed them. All the mayors were there as well. But all the mayors were there. So there was such great presence from all the political parties, you know, reform had had a presence there, conservatives. I don't know if the Greens did, but and Labour certainly did. So there was real interaction. I don't know about the Lib Demsy, but they must have done somewhere. But um, yeah, it felt really timely and relevant. I think you're right, there is an element of kind of being lost in the noise, but at the same time, just being seen to be there has become really important.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, and Liverpool next year is it, the rumours that moving, shifting. Do you think it'll stay with leads?

unknown 9:36

No.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

I they ran a beauty parade a couple of years ago, and you know, all the logical reasons would say go to somewhere that has a purpose-built like conference facility and more hotel beds and more of that kind of thing. But actually, you know, the guys who've created EQE from credit to them, you know, Matt Christie and Nathan Spencer and all the team have done such an amazing job building this business in a very short time. But you know, but they are Yorkshire through and through. They've they've done such a lot, and you know, I know Leeds Leeds are now putting working through the planning to put build their own conference centre because it's been so successful. So I think I I would be surprised if they didn't find a way to keep it there.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, it's big big money for them. It's a you know a few days, big money. And it it's interesting because obviously this came on the back of local elections. Um I remember last year there was we had all the new mayors, and it was the first time Mayor of Peter um Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, he was saying, you know, he got elected and within two weeks he had to go to UK Reef and represent Cabrin Cambridge and Peterborough. But I didn't find I didn't um sort of feel there was the same sort of we'd had all the the local elections, there had been this big churn, but it didn't feel as if it was sort of it it m manifested itself in UK Reef at all, did it?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

My gut feel on that is because we're now at this freaky point where there are 42% of the local authorities in the UK are now no overall control. Yeah. So I think if you'd had a sweep of any particular party, it would have been more impactful at UK Reef because you'd have had a strong steer in lots of local authorities where, you know, eight, whether it was Labour policy or Conservative policy, whatever was leading it. Whereas it's kind of like all bets are off, nobody really knows what's going on with any particular planning application anywhere. Jack, do you think that's a fair?

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think I think all of this has got to land, and actually I think it might take another 12 months before it does land, and people can see what that where they are where they are going. I mean, the those councils that did go and reform, and I, you know, obviously work very closely with Essex, um, the reform leader, the new reform leader of Essex was not out at UK Reef, but he had given it his blessing, which is important. And and Tom Walker, who was his senior officer there, got up in the Essex panel that I chaired, which was actually with the aforementioned Paul Bristow of Cambridge and Peter, and we were talking about Stanstead, and it was a cracking panel, actually. Um, but that was the first panel that Essex had in their pavilion. And uh Tom Walker, when he was introducing the entire Essex programme, said the lead, our leader is not here, our new leader is not here, but he has given us this his blessing, and I think that was quite important. And I don't think any local authority leader of any uh complexion could possibly turn their back on local economic development and growth. You know, not at least not at least ostensibly, not to be seen to be standing in the in the way of that.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

That that's one of the messages I I've had lots of conversations recently with councils that have turned reform or no overall control. And people keep saying to me, you know, what about the SDSE, spatial development strategies? You know, will reform just chuck them out if they form the next and I and I was like, exactly the point. I said, look, if they are sold as investment frameworks, there's very few councils that would say, we don't want the jobs, we don't want the investment, we don't want the money to come here, we don't want to make our place better, you know. And at the end of the day, that's what a lot of what we do is about storytelling, storytelling, storytelling, lots of chats about storytelling, you know. If you tell a good story about why you want the investment and how you want your place to change, and how you're gonna do that, how you're gonna support that, you know, that's a good story regardless. And um, I was listening to um Andy Burnham an interview with Andy Burnham when I was um travelling today, and and he said this before many times place over politics, you know, his type of politics as a mayor has been about the place. And I think we're seeing that a lot in terms of the the mayors, but also um some of the councils, you know, this is about what's the in in the interest of their place and the people that live there.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

But just on the whole point of of mayors, I mean, you know, it being a mayor is not an apprenticeship for being the prime minister, it's an entirely different job. And one of the things that we were discussing at the last uh pad pod when when you were sadly Miss Katrina and had to get two men to in uh to to stand in for you, uh, one of the things we were discussing there was what a well, not brilliant, but certainly totally competent mayor of London, Boris Johnson was. You know, it actually was, I mean, even though he couldn't follow a brief, and I can remember being out at Mippam and watching his PR people putting their heads in their hands because he hadn't he hadn't made the one announcement that he was supposed to make and da-da-da. I mean, you know, he was absolutely hopeless in that regard. But he was actually quite a good mayor of London, even though he took credit for all the stuff that Ken Livingston did. I mean, that's a politician for you, all fine. But it did not mean that that made him a good Prime Minister. Actually, he was actually the worst prime minister we've ever had, with the possible exception of Liz Trust. But I blame him for Liz Truss as well. You know, so I I think this whole business about how, you know, being a mayor is an apprenticeship for being the prime minister is is hope come, actually.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

It's such different roles. And actually, that's there was a big thing that I think some people have seen. Oh, I can't remember the name of the journalist, but I'll look it up and put it in the notes. But there was a guy who ran um independent journalist Manchester Mill, I think it is. He did an online thing and it got picked up by the Times and lots of paper at the weekend. And it's a really balanced, really fair assessment of all the things that have made Andy Burnham a very successful mayor, and all things that mainly mean that he probably might not be a very good Prime Minister in some ways, because they are not equivalent roles. The power and the locus of control that you have as a mayor are so very different to the things that buffet you as a prime minister. And some people can navigate both, but I completely agree with you, Jackie. It's not an audition. They're not, they're not like-for-like roles in any way. And it's a real shame that we've got ourselves into this situation where they're being seen as that because I think it also devalues, you know, what is you know, Manchester and the greatest Manchester Authority have such incredible um profile as being, you know, pioneers in lots of place-based investment and lots of the kind of models and the what they've done with their pension fund to catalyse more affordable housing. And actually, that's a really prestigious role that should have people clamouring to do it. And my concern is that it's going to be a bit of an afterthought election with whoever's left over wants maybe Burnham takes some key people with him to Whitehall if that's what happens. Um and it shouldn't be like that. They should be, it's prestigious in its own right.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Yeah. And that and that is a really important point, you know. Whatever leader you're talking about, whether it's a local authority, whether it's a mayor, whether it's prime minister, so much of it is about the people that sit beneath you, the team that supports you, you know, so much of it is about the whole team, isn't it? Um, so we've we've had the elections, there's been um some surprises, not some surprises. We've not actually felt we've not had some um really sort of changing tactics apart from um maybe Cruise Hill in Enfield, where Enfield Council have come out and said they they now don't want the new town um and the new towns programme.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Well, I've no look, I've got to be very careful here, girls, because you know, I am the chair of the Innovation Corridor and and actually Enfield are very valuable, valued members of ours. But yeah, this was a bit of a shock moment. I mean, you know, the Conservatives get get elected in Enfield on the back of the fact they've opposed Cruise Hill. Uh, I mean, fair play is that they've got a manifesto commitment to that, and you know, they're going to enact it. Um, this means that the New Towns program, the MHC, MHCLG's New Towns program, is now even further impoverished, isn't it? From 191,000 units over 25. Sorry, I must use stop using the word units. 191,000 home. CBRE genetics going in there. Oh, 191,000. It forms. I know, I know, I know. And actually, actually, I taught him that if I'm going to be honest. So I really should practice what I preach. But anyway, 100 dissociative language was my big old thing back in the days to say, stop talking about the you know, child yield units of housing, you know, talk about people. Anyway, uh I digress. Uh, so that's been further diluted, the 191,000, which isn't so great. Of course, you know, the chances are, you know, and who knows what's going to happen after the after the Labour leadership election, that, you know, there could be a little bit of a moment and it could there could be a development corporation imposed by the Mayor of London, in which case, of course, it would be out of the Enfield leadership's hands, and at which point they would just have to get on with it. And I I I think we might get to that point. Because the Cruise Hills, well, the Cruise Hill project's a great project and it's a pro-growth project in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

But I mean, my understanding also was that the New Towns program was going to be taken through the national infrastructure route.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

So it is a national programme, and as you say, you know, National Development Corporation. We've had one of them recently. We've had the the newly appointed Greater Cambridge Development Corporation. The government have now confirmed that. Yeah. Um, I suspect it might be one of many.

unknown 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Well, and indeed, and I'm sorry to sort of sound as if I've been drinking the Kool-Aid, but you know, shouldn't this all be coming through, you know, the strategic development um strategies? Because, you know, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Special development strategies.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Spatial development strategies. I I'm garbling now outrageously. Oh, spatial investment frameworks, as you would have it. I mean, you know, I it is this is exactly how the direction of travel, in my bel in my, in my view. And we also need to rehearse that wonderful thing that Lucian Cook said this morning, which is that uh he saw it at the uh Vistry Partner Delivery Day, which is really good.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

And I had a little panel on placemaking, which we'll come to in a bit. But Lucian had a great keynote and he had 10 um bits of this is the best planning environment in you know in a more than a generation. I mean, you've got the actually the improvements to the space. Have been so vulnerable that this is, you know, this everything is perfectly primed for more delivery if only the financial framework were you know equally uh capable to deliver. And I think that that again, coming back to the V-word that we did have at MIPIM and the UK, we've been at viability is still so difficult. So the wonderful Richard Donald at Home Track is his estimation is that 48% of the UK is now unviable to develop. 40%. 48%. 48% of it. 48%. It's really, really serious. So I think there is just that all the work that's been done is so great. But again, the the things that we keep banging on about on this podcast and everywhere else that we speak, you know, the lack of that compelling positive narrative around growth, Jack, and the work that you're doing on the corridor that is happening in other places. Um the thing with Enfield that bugs me, you know, it's just that I know there are amazingly good officials there, really capable, really, really how pro-growth, pro-housing, focused on delivering great things for the residents of Enfield who have real expertise. And if we're in a situation where it has to be delivered through a development corporation or something else, it's just that whole resourcing thing of right, so are you asking people to pick a side to leave a council role where they've got a really important role to go and go be in the part of a development corporation or to try and do half and half, or you're hiring a load of new people from outside who don't have the local context and the knowledge and the relationships. I that to me is the bit that I'm worried that we haven't, with all of the LGR stuff, we haven't thought through enough. The lack of capacity in the system. It's all very well saying, you know, we you know, we've got a third of a planner here, there, and every other will add in with other new money, but the lack of capacity of the local knowledge that builds trust, that gets the right stakeholders in the room, can do it ill and get things done. People can't be in three places at once. And that that that was my where my heart sank. Whatever solution happens with the New Towns program or whatever, I don't think this government is sufficiently focused on resource capacity within local and central governments.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I hadn't thought of it that way, but that is I'm quite saddened. I think you're right about that, and I'm quite saddened about that actually. Sorry, didn't you touch on it? Well, no, no, but um now you've now you put it so so so clearly. You know, the Enfield senior officer coho cohort at Enfield, and obviously I know them all very well, and they're a very fine body of women and men. Um, they have delivered a really sound local plan, and they were working through this process in a really textbook kind of exemplary fashion. And I'm a little bit saddened actually that that's all been whipped away from them. I hadn't thought of it that way round. So yeah, I I I do think they deserve a shout out really for having really established a very good platform for growth. And I hope I hope it gets taken forward in in some way or another that people feel comfortable with.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

And another bar, we should just jump in, sorry, Katrina, but the um former leader of Barkin and Dalganham Council, our friend Darren Rodwell, who we like to make blush whenever he's come to a live podcast, because that's part of the fun of it. But he is publishing a book at the moment about his kind of mission on inclusive growth. So all of his lessons for tet from 10 years of running Barking and Dagenham, and it's happening now while we're recording this, which is why we're not there. But we we did say we'd give him a shout out. But again, it's something you've said on this pod before, Jackie, about you know, there's a model there. There's a successful growth of delivering, you know, 20% of London's council housing, actually making his T8 temporary accommodation numbers go down in that borough and everywhere else they've been going up. So there are real models of great success in our system that don't get the attention maybe they should.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

We're not great at sharing best practice and learning from best practice, really. And and I don't really understand why that is when there's such a dire need. But I have to say, Darren Rodwell, who's launching his book tonight, I think his book is well worth well worth a you know I think it's 20 quid, it's not an awful lot of money, but uh his. Signed mine, did he sign yours? Yes, he did sign mine, actually. And how do you and I've known him, I've known him on you? I have known him longer than you, so have you? So no, but but his strap line is building communities one brick and one heart at a time, and uh, you know, God love him.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, so so you know, let's take that positivity and um you know and and and the the the discussion around resources is absolutely critical, Alex. You're you're you're right. But I I attended um the the lovely Simon Ricketts had a 10-year anniversary of his um blog, Simonicity.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Was he wearing that shirt?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Because it's his orange shirt there.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

He was trying to force us to do fashion watch while you weren't there at the live book because it was bright orange bright in my eyeliner.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

No, he didn't actually, but it it was it was a lovely event. He had a whole load of bloggers, people, um, and and the the the purpose of it it was for charity as it would be with Simon. But it was about looking forward 10 years and trying to think about what we're gonna be like in 10 years. And you know, my my my take is we will be in a much stronger place as long as we carry on with the reforms because I I do think LGR, government restructuring, strategic planning, and all that will help solve some of the real critical issues around resourcing. But I also I've I've I've got this little bit of a wish, and I and I wish we'd done it. I wish the government had done it this time round, and that's about planning committees, about going for the same model as development corporations, and um national parks have got the same model as well, where you've got 50% locally democratically accountable councillors and 50% experts. And you know, my understanding from the new for the national parks model is it works brilliantly, and the councillors work very collaboratively with the experts that are appointed, and that's the model for the development corporation. And it's a shame that we have to impose the development corporation model when actually we could just change the model of how we make decisions at local authorities. And you know, for for Greater Cambridge, um, I understand the development corporation is going to have plan making functions as well as development management functions. So the question is what's left for the local authority from a planning perspective, especially if the combined authority is taking on some of the big decisions around housing numbers, greenbelt reviews and things through the SDS. So what's left? I know they'll deal with extensions. Well, yeah, exactly. It will be all the political planning applications that most planners don't want to be sitting doing. So, you know, there's there's a there's a question about what happens in this new landscape, if there's more um development corporations, if there's uh less sort of need to have that sort of big resource within local authorities.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

But right now it is the local authorities that have the powers. They have the planning powers, they have the CPO powers, they've got the borrowing powers. Now, you know, your combined authorities can potentially aggregate those, you know, and actually, you know, dip into those. But at the moment, they're still relying on the local authorities with the powers. Now, I'm I'm not saying that isn't going to shift. I I think potentially it is going to shift. But right now, even quite tiny little local authorities have got quite quite considerable power, actually. And you know, I I'm a great one for seeking, you know, seeking forgiveness rather than asking for permission. And I think this is the moment that, you know, a bold local authority of no matter what size, you know, should be, you know, seizing the day, really.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

But we're not going to have any small local authorities left after local government restructure. And I think that you know that we've now got an English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act, which um you know gives a huge amount of powers and responsibility and funding to the mayoral system. But, and this is really interesting. So, every strategic planning authority, whether it's in a devolved context or not, has the the Homes England powers, the land acquisition and housing powers. So that goes to every part of the country. And you know, we're looking at the Homes England Place partnerships, they're doing an amazing job. You know, they are beginning to really, really deliver, I think.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

And I'd like to just give a little shout out to you know, um, authority again, Southwest, as you would expect, but the Bath and Northeast Somerset Council, actually, it's a Lib Dem authority, has been for many, many years, and has always been hamstrung by the UNESCO World Heritage, you know, listing for Bath that means you know you cannot build anything as it's very, very constrained and kind of real hemmed in green belt, and also lots of post-war grotty stuff that frankly should, you know, is is crying out for kind of estate regen, urban infill, but just is really complicated to do. And actually, the authority have really grappled with it. They've done a really good partnership with Homes England, but also with their the Regional Pension Authority, with the combined authority, and they're starting to really motor and do stuff. The university there's really focused on it as well. And it's been in the art of the possible for so long. It's really impressive just to see a relatively small, you know, not massive, but do lots of really engaging stuff with different parties in in the region and just try to get stuff moving and accept that, you know, even take the chance that we might do X, and that might mean that we may, if not lose, may put our UNESCO listing into question. But we're gonna have a go at it anyway, because actually the imperative is that we just need to do more to improve the offer for local residents. And I think that's that's brilliant. That you know, more authority should be encouraged to be brave like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Absolutely. I mean, I I um I always equate the the the stage we're in at the moment, particularly in terms of planning reform, is if you're cleaning out your bedroom or your house and you take everything out, all your drawers and your cupboards, and it's just a mess, and then you start putting everything back, and you think, oh, actually, I can see I can see the ground now. Right, so we're running out of time, but Jackie, you've got a 15th birthday party coming up very soon.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

14th of July. We are having a 15th birthday party for the unit for the UK Innovation Corridor. And you know, I I will say this because I didn't invent this partnership, and I've only inherited it and had the privilege really of just being its custodian for the last three years. It is the finest public sector-private sector partnership in this country. Um, it's none of it is you know whipped by government, none of it was imposed upon the members. All the partners are in it because they want to be in it. It is a total coalition of the willing, and I have to say, but I pay total testament to John McGill, who was the founding director and is still with the partnership. We're we're we're up for a new chair. We're we're um looking, we're interviewing at the end of June for a new chair. We've got a brilliant field of candidates. I'm very optimistic about the future of the partnership going forward, but we are, of course, having its 15th birthday party, and of course, all pad podders are invited.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Oh what? That'll be fantastic. And you have steered that ship pretty pretty successfully, Jackie. You know, you might be you might have a good field of people to take over, but it's in that position, not just because of John, but because of its cheer. So well I'll I'll have that. I'll have that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Banking. Oh, I'm a woman of influence, you see, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Have you been to MIT? You've been to RIA, doesn't it? You've been to Experial, you've done MIPA, you know, you've done all those massive things because of the work you've done there. Let's just on your day, let's just take the barrister, let's take the praise.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

It's not a hard ask, though. I mean, you know, as as as we've rehearsed before, the corridor is the closest thing that the UK's got to a Silicon Valley. It runs along uh the fracture line of four spatial development strategy areas, you know, and will have an impact on each of the four. Uh, we've got a GVA of 284 billion, we could be doing an awful lot better. Silicon Valley is 900 billion, so we could be, we could be doing so much better. But you know, it's not a difficult ask to go out there and talk about this thing because it is a great opportunity and the market absolutely loves it.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, and Jack, Alex, you've got loads happening in terms of housing 2026, you've got some really important research on the housing forum.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Spinning some plates, so yeah. So one of the reports that the housing forum did a bit before my time, but 2024, they did a report on the cost of building a house, and one of those things was just actually the trying to clarify the reality, even though that even back then the escalation of building costs and additional regulation and everything else, and how why that viability challenge has been so difficult. So we've been looking at that again, and we've had a great working group of members, and the first bit of that is looking at procurement, which always makes everyone's eyes roll. But you know, I talk about it a lot because it's always the bit that there is a solution within them, particularly when we're trying to talk about bringing back council housing or council-led housing and getting RPs to deliver more, easing the procurement burden that has somehow become really, really heavy in those spaces and in a way that it didn't need to be is something that we could look at that would make delivery more possible. So we'll be doing that um at Housing 2026, which is you know the the big, traditionally very RP focused conference run by Ocean Media in Manchester in late June. But we've got a Housing Forum Theatre for the whole day on the Wednesday. Um so I've got Darren Rodwell. I'm gonna interview him about his career and his book, and that could be really good fun.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Um we've got asking for a signed copy for me. I'll get on a minute. I'll get you on for you.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

We paid for hours. All you have to do, all you have to do is deliver the Queen of Holidays or just be off on this. I want to give a proper plug to this. We've got something called the Futures Network, which is our professional development programme at the Housing Forum, and it's really fantastic. And it's you know, mid-career professionals kind of five years. And we've just launched, but so first thing is there's no extra cost. If you're if your organization is a future, is a housing forum member, there's no additional cost for your organization at all apart from your time and them agreeing to write a letter of support for your application. But they get a whole cohort, they get training, they get media training, they get presentation skills training, they get all sorts of opportunities. It's a really fantastic thing, but they also have to do a research project. And this year's cohort have done a project called Speaking the Same Language, which is all about breaking down the jargon, the barriers. Honestly, you'd be you'd be so it's fantastic. And again, we're going to be launching a bit of the first bit of that and doing some interactive round tables on that in Manchester. Um, and then the final bit will be at our um national conference in October. So I'm really proud, it's just lovely to see something where um we had a session at the CIH in Brighton a couple of months ago, and some of these guys, you know, in that mid-career stage, but chairing their first round table conversation and you know, having to deal with the person who won't shut up and the person who won't speak and trying to get you know how you manage. Anna, but it's it's it's a brilliant, it's a brilliant thing to do, and I'm really proud of it. And this year, for the first time, we're also including some funded places for local authority members as well. So I'm hoping we'll get a really good cohort for the next year as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

It must feel as if you've been doing this job for years, but you've only been doing it six months.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I'm not even at 100 days yet, so no, technically, no, it's starting to feel like my train set. I've got, you know, the board are amazing, the members are fantastic, my team are wonderful. Um, uh, but we're in that kind of grimy, like getting their processes moving and uh improving stuff. But the um yeah, the potential of what it could be doing is starting to get really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Well, look, it's been fantastic having us all back together again um in sunny London, sunny for now. Um, it's gonna be fantastic over the next few months because we've got the next episode, we have got our the second um anniversary of the current government. So we'll maybe do a little bit of a review.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Oh, you've been coming through your address book, haven't you, Katrina?

SPEAKER_01 34:14

And so we've got some really interesting guests. But um, thank you, ladies. It's been fantastic. This is Planning After Dark, um, powered by Kratos. See you all soon. Thank you.