Anniversary Special: New Towns, MIPIM and Mayhem

Planning After Dark turns one! 

And in this anniversary special the PAD Pod marks the occasion with a lively and wide-ranging conversation on the biggest planning stories of the moment. Jackie, Catriona and Alex reflect on a whirlwind first year of the podcast before diving into MIPIM, inward investment and the UK’s patchy international presence, asking what the sector still isn’t getting right about global promotion and delivery. From there, they unpack devolution, spatial development strategies, the Planning and Infrastructure Bill and the government’s latest new towns announcement - including why seven shortlisted locations may be politically significant, but won’t come close to solving the housing crisis on their own.

The episode also explores rightsizing and older people’s housing, with fresh insight from a House of Lords roundtable on how better housing choices later in life could unlock family homes and improve quality of life. 

And in a more serious final section, the team discuss the worsening treatment of public sector planners, the pressures of committee culture, and the urgent need to support and retain officers across local government. With reflections on the past year and a look ahead to UKREiiF and the next guest, this is a fittingly full-on start to year two.

Get in touch! Message us at ask@planningafterdark.co.uk

Planning After Dark is the bold and insightful podcast where three powerhouse women in planning and development - Alex Notay, Catriona Riddell, and Jackie Sadek - shine a light on the industry’s biggest challenges, trends, and, yes, even a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip.

From navigating the complexities of development to debating the future of our cities, Planning After Dark is the no-holds-barred discussion you won’t want to miss.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Planning After Dark is powered by Kratos Group, the consultancy that lives and breathes local government. Whether it's regeneration, housing delivery, or political strategy, Kratos helps councils and partners shape the future. Learn more at Kratos.co.uk.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello and welcome everybody. I am Alex Note, and we are here with the Planning After Dark Platpod Girls. We've got Katrina Ridell. And Jackie Sadek. And first thing to celebrate, we have some new listeners. Not just any new listeners, Jackie. Who have we got?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Well, it's been a bit of a running joke between all of us, hasn't it? Being that you guys, your families all listen to your podcast. And of course mine. Occasionally. Well, my my and and mine were conspicuous by their absence because they completely blank me and normally have got no idea what it is I do for a living. And I sort of become I've got that thing that happens like the mum in the royal family where you become completely I don't mean the royal family, I mean the royal family, the sitcom, where you become completely invisible when you go into your house. And anyway, look long story short, I was discovered by my son's girlfriend, Harriet. So my son is Bruno, his wonderful girlfriend is Harriet. She has discovered the podcast, she's introduced it to him. He came home enthused for Britain about it. I was so touched and so flattered, I have to say. And the pair of them are now avid listeners and have basically marked our homework girls and got loads of suggestions and what to say. I mean, they both work for Foxton's and they're both out valuing and selling high-end houses. They come from a very different part of the industry from us. But it's quite interesting. She's got a degree in human geography from Newcastle University. Clearly knows her stuff. He's I think he's a great at selling houses. I think the two of them are quite a power couple, actually. But I just never ever thought that I'd come across their radar, and I'm so flattered, I can't begin to tell you.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

But in a slide indoor moment, she could have ended up as a planner.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Well, I did say to her, what on earth are you doing? Flogging houses. But anyway, that's uh that's another conversation, I think, for another one.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Well done, Harriet, and good work, Bruno, for joining the team. It's only taken a year because this is our one-year anniversary, but that's great. There's a nice little backlog backlogue for them to listen in on. So good stuff. Fantastic. Welcome and welcome, all new listeners. Katrina, so it is our first anniversary. Yep. Um, thoughts on that? Happy birthday to the name. Happy birthday. There's no PRS at all on that, so people might let you keep that one in.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Happy birthday.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Apart from the songs, Katrina, what else are you thinking about? Year one of the pad pods.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

It was a bit of a when I sort of realised it was a year since we started this, and you look back at all the episodes. For anybody that is diving into this now, they're all still so relevant. I mean, there's things in there, obviously, things have changed, but the vast amount of the content is still relevant today. It's not as if you've lost anything by going back. Just if if you are new to the podcast, give it a listen. Start from the start and work your way through because the names may change, and there's certain things that we're hoping to get back. Fashion watch, which it was uh I'm not hoping to get it back, which was a bit of a peek. Um, but I it was it's lovely, and back to the point about families and things like that. My sister, my husband dives in, he tends to listen when there's a guest speaker, and then he'll say, That is brilliant, and you're like, What about the other episodes? But uh yeah, we yeah, it's been a bit of a whirlwind, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

It certainly has. And Jackie, another little award honour to celebrate was you are a the planner's woman, one of the women of influence this year. Congratulations!

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Named by the planner magazine. I was so tickled, I was so absolutely overwhelmed with this. I went back to the wonderful woman who manages all of this programme and I said, You do know I'm not a planner, don't you? Uh, I thought, well, she's got the wrong person. I mean, but I was absolutely thrilled to get this. Oh, thoroughly deserves a woman of influence, I have to say, having run planning applications and having had no influence whatsoever over yeah, I couldn't, I can't quite believe I'm a woman of influence. But I look, I'll take it. I'm banking it, I'm having it.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I think this pad pod has had a little all sorts of unexpected influences and tentacles, and I'd love it. I was just saying outside the number of WhatsApp messages I get from people I really wouldn't have expected to be listening to it who are is fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yeah, and the amount of people that come up at conferences and meetings and say, and they all call it Pad Pod, they all say, I'm a PadPod fan, I'm a Pad Pod fan, and you're and it as you see, it's people that you don't expect at all, and there's thousands of them, and there's a lot of lawyers.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Well, I mean you're still trying to pick a fight, Katrina, but we have still that how rude you've been to the legal profession. This is quite phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah, it is, it is, but it's very exciting times, and we'll come back at the end of this episode. But we've got more guests in the works and some exciting stuff that I'll come to Jackie at the end to tell us about. But looking back a little bit, what have we been up to this mad month of March? And I guess it started off with Mippim, Jackie. You and I toddled off to the south of France.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Uh what was the by the week? Uh thankfully it was very good, Katrina. So don't you start? Don't you start rubbing your hands together in glee. Well, I don't know. MIPIM, uh look, I got through it. I did feel like I've been hit by a bus after it, but I got through it yet again. What can I say? I was, dare I say, a bit disappointed with the UK presence. I thought we were a bit underwhelming. Again. Um it was lacking ministers again. Lacking ministers. I don't think that's such a bad thing, but it was very sad that the only mayor out there was Andy Burnham, who was on stonkingly good form. It's the only mayor. Yeah, and actually disappointing. Actually, I took a call from Andy Street. This is name dropping outrageously. I took a call from Andy Street during MIPA, and I said to him here, Andy, back in the day we wouldn't have had this. There'd have been at least half a dozen mayors. And I do think that actually there's a bit of work to be done with the mayors about potential inward investment programme that would be and they don't all have to go, but it would be very good to see the mayors working in a collective to get to secure inward investment on a global platform. So it's just the thought, really. But mercifully, we were spared the Freddie Mercury look-alike. Um mercifully we were spared the dreadful Michael Jackson look-alike that we had last time. So that was quite good. And I think Alex Notto had a fantastic MIP him. You were so busy, Alex. I was I we were like a whirlwind.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

It was alright. We managed, we had a nice lunch with some of our housing forum members at the beginning of the week with HTA and Trouters and Hamlins, and that was good. I think, um, yeah, I was equally, and as I always am, disappointed with the UK presence. It's not to undermine the people who were working really hard to make it better. I think the UK organisers of MIPIM have really worked, and they they did a big inward investment brochure, and they had tried, my god, they had tried to get ministers and mayors and everyone to come, but as you said, Jackie, the lever just needs to come from somewhere else to get those politicians to understand the value. But it was notable that on that kind of housing matters, the first day they have, which is all housing content, there were huge delegations from virtually every other country going, even all the Emirati and the Gulf delegations who frankly had other things on their minds probably and had to like take really convoluted routes to get there, still managed to be there to represent their country. So it just felt a bit lame to get these sort of half-ass messages very late out of the UK government. It was like, oh, because of uncertainty, we're not coming. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

One of the first things we talked about in our very first pod was this the difference between UK Reef and Mippin and how they they offer something different. But I I definitely get the feeling that everybody now is just putting so much into UK Reef. I think that's true.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

And it's an yeah, no, I get that. And it's like, but they are not the same, they're not equally, they're not the same type of show, they do different things. And I think it for me, particularly for the international inward investment crowd, the and that which is something that Jackie and I were always banging on out, that is really important. And housing and data centres were the two topics that were there. And if you are really looking at the massive institutions, at the big infrastructure funders, the pension funds, find some of them all have UK reps and very small offices of maybe two or three people, but the size of the delegations and the seniority of the delegations who are there at Mippam is just a different scale. They are both brilliant shows in different ways, but they are not interchangeable, and it really frustrates me that people are kind of trying to, especially at that senior government level, that they can't see the difference. If you are running a business and you have to take a call, I completely get it. But actually, to represent the UK economy, you should be able to articulate a different strategy for both.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

And you should be on a global platform. And you should be on a global platform. A wee bit of set of sex and sizzle were provided by the presence of Steve Coogan. There was a lot of excitement about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

I got a new George Clark.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

That was a bit of telegrammar. Tell us why Steve Coogan was there again.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

About Manchester. I did go to that one of the sessions. They had a lot of Manchester stuff about their bidding for various things, including I think new not Commonwealth Games, but new Olympic games. He's the coach of one of the development corporations. But um, I didn't see that session. Apparently that was very well intended attended. So yeah, there were some good, there were some really good people. So that's saying from the city level, I think mayors apart. There were lots of good officials, there's lots of real involvement, lots of councillors uh who have been able to figure out ways with private sector entities to help fund their travels, so it's not using public money, but it's still worth doing. But yeah, it's just a shame when you look at how coordinated other countries are because they know that they get the value out of it. And that's the thing, it is not the same as e-caref. They're both valuable in very different ways.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Yeah, I knew a lot less people. I usually get serious FOMO actually for mipping. And I I everybody I know that usually goes didn't go this year for whatever reason, maybe just money's tight.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, I don't think the market is tricky. And I spoke to a number of people who were based in the Gulf in different bits, and we're kind of going, yeah, my my wife's at home and I can't speak to them, but it seems to be okay, but we'll I'll be flying back there later. So, you know, it did refocus minds, but actually, I was slightly concerned on the way out that the entire market would stall because of all the stuff going on, geopolitical uncertainty. We know uncertainty is toxic for the market. What actually was quite uplifting was that there was a real view that the market has to carry on and we can't all just stop and wait for we know whatever is happening to kind of stop happening. So that I came away slightly more optimistic that people were gonna lean into these big projects and you did see cities like the Manchester Stand announcing lots of really big large-scale schemes that were really interesting. So that's good.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

I thought you were gonna segue there into me trying to send the two of you out to bar, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Well, I was gonna want yeah, we did you like to explain yourself there, Jimmy.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

This is quite funny, actually, I have to say. This is what you do. What you what do you do to your best friends? You send them into a war zone. I mean, it just I just got a very charming invitation for some from some very nice conference organisers asking me if I could go out and be on a platform with the housing minister of Bahrain. And I looked at the timings and I thought, oh god, this is I can't really do it. I can't do it in my diary. But lovely trip, all expenses paid. I thought this would be marvellous, and so I can't do it. So what will I do? I'll offer it to my best friends. I think one of you came back immediately and said, Yes, I think you might notice there's a war broken out.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Um I I I remember look I I looked at it and I and I remember my jaw hit the floor, and I thought, is she joking? Is this serious? And then with within two seconds, she's trying to get us out of the way, Katrina.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

We just gotta we've got to be moved on.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

And so Alex's reply, and I thought, well, thank god it wasn't just imagining us, it's just what we're doing. What do I do to my friends, guys? You have to laugh.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Donna Sadek has decided it's time for us to be an interesting podcast.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

I feel bad for the poor event organiser because they've put together a cracking programme. And Bahrain, of course, is it really suffers from being a neighbour of me, maybe. Yeah, I did I thought it was a shame, but anyway, there we are. No offence, meant ladies.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Like we'll keep our eyes out for your next little scheme, so that's all good. What else? Jackie, the Raddock's big tent housing commission last week you very kindly chaired a round table at the House of Lords with Lord Richard Best on downsizing.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Well, I I have to say, I mean, Lord Richard Best, you know, what a luminous character he is.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Now, Alex, I have to say, it's very difficult being Alex Notte in a room. It's very, very hard. I think you would have been better because you're so much more proficient on the technical stuff than me. But I I think it was a cracking event. It was incredibly well attended by a bunch of real experts in this field. And hats off to Radix for putting together a really brilliant attendance. As I say, Richard was very luminous in the way that he introduced herself. Yeah, I was gonna say Alex Note, very off message with her downsizing. We are talking about right sizing. Now, this is the phenomenon whereby people like my 93-year-old mother are living in four-bedroom houses in Ham in Surrey, which could be put back into users' family homes, but she's rattling around in there under occupation, basically. And we were basically grappling with what to do about all of this, because of course, part of the solution to the housing crisis would be to free up all these family homes that and we all know about the phenomenon, you know. But anyway, long story short, one of the things I was very keen on from the chair, and I kept impressing on everybody, was fiscal incentive, tax breaks, whatever it is, fiscal incentives to get people to do this. Because if you take my mother again as an example, she was an early adopter of the housing market in 1961, and it was the best thing she ever did. She's made some serious capital out of trading up. It is against her religion to rent a property, right? So, in order to get her to sell up her four-bedroom house and move into a retirement home, she would have to be able to buy it. And the psychological hurdle of getting her into a rental space is just too much for me. Let alone the amount of energy you would need to clear out the garage, to clear out the loft, the psychological hurdle, the amount of real disruption that a move would give you. So there's a whole bunch of hurdles, and of course, I am living with this, and one of the things we discussed, actually, we didn't discuss it in the session. We did uh myself and James Pargiter, the one the wonderful James Pargiter, discussed this afterwards. Is the house next door to my mother's, which has been lying vacant because the lady in there sadly died about a year ago, probate. How many thousands of homes are tied up in probate? And if you could and if you could accelerate that, then how many more thousands of homes could be put back onto the market? So it's a fascinating subject. Alex, I hope I did you proud. I think Radix, I think Radix certainly did you proud. I think it's well worth looking at, and in terms of the myriad of solutions that we need to the housing crisis, this is really up there as being one of the important ones that we tackle because we're talking about stock that already exists. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yeah, but also it's we're talking about providing a good alternative, not just whether it's rented or owned, but something that recognises that older people want to be independent, want to still have a party, still want to meet up with people socially. And you know, we've got Australia, America, I've got these fantastic models, they're retirement villages, but they're they're for people that want to live, not go to die. We talked about that when we talked at the Radics.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

There was a great acronym that we used to use when I was at CBRE, which was NORC, N-O-R-C, which is a not an obvious retirement community. So you've moved into this place, you're not going to admit you're in a retirement community, of course, you are, because actually you're still a party animal. There's some of the stuff that came out in the round table was fascinating. Apparently, if people move by 75 and actually properly future-proof their lives and all the rest of it, is the apparently they all report is the best thing they ever did. Really, right? And I just think there's quite a big lesson in here for some of us more than others, perhaps a little bit further along towards. No, I was not looking at you, I was looking at myself, as you well know. I mean, just this whole thing, and if you haven't done it by the time you're 75, chances are you're not going to. It just gets that bit harder to do, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, and if but you've also got all these options where you sell your house and you live off the you pay rent, basically. What's it called? I can't remember what it is. Yeah, I mean, it is still a so it makes it really difficult. It's an attractive option to keep you in that house. Oh, right. Yes, but you basically stay in that house, but you effectively sell it and then you get an income from that until and so that you can have a bit more money.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

We didn't discuss that model. I know the one you're talking about, but there were there was a wonderful woman there who came and pressed her card into my hand at the end of the session who has a retirement community in Hampton Court, which of course this is not not too not too far from sorry, so I'm I looked at this quite but basically she said to me if your mother releases all her equity and puts it onto a high interest earning account, then the interest will pay for her rent. And I had to say to her, it still won't cut in.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Oh, it's probably the one across from Hampton Court, literally across the water from Hampton Court, the most beautiful building.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Well, really lovely. Well, I mean, there's nothing that's very expensive. I mean, I don't think my mother's lonely at all, actually, because she's got a lot of people who call her all the time, but I think she's bored. She wouldn't mind having a poke around in other people's lives, I have to say. So it'd be quite good if she was. Anyway, long story short, it was a great success. Alex, you were much missed, but I think Radix did us proud, and I think it's a really important subject.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

I think it is too. And Jackie, thank you so much for taking away. What you're doing because I know you would have done it absolutely brilliantly, and indeed I heard that you did.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I would do anything for you, Alex Notting.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Oh, I've got there's a song. Stop it. Right, before you get to singing, Katrina, stop singing, focus on planning. What is going on with um I mean, well, where to start? LGR latest STS geographies? What's going on with that? New towns down from 12 to 7. There's a lot, there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

There's an awful lot going on. I mean, we've had consultations on, as you say, the spatial development strategy geographies, and they're they're also running in parallel a consultation on expressions of interest for devolved authorities. So they're they've sort of been asked to sort of comment that finished last week. We've got all the new consultations on rolling out the sort of regs for the Planning Infrastructure Act, around committees, around national scheme of delegation, so it's all trying to change the way that decisions are made. As you said, we've got the new towns announcement. I mean, we've got uh uh a a million different consultations. I don't think the planning minister sleeps ever. I suspect he's probably gone on holiday, locked himself in a dark room, and he's gonna stay there for the whole of Easter because the amount of stuff that's coming out from MHCLG is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

And the It was more than the usual end-of-term flurry, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Yeah, and I think the elections this year, I mean, local elections are always important, but I think they're sort of a bit more important this time in terms of how certain parties are going to perform. So they've got to keep clear space between now and after the election. So there was definitely a I think Matt Matthew Pennycook has been quite clear all along. He wants everything out there before the summer so that they can get on with the delivery. They can actually get on and start uh sort of actually doing the job, but the foundations are there. One thing that I think is really becoming increasingly important is water and energy. And the conversations I'm having, I did workshop in Lancashire for the Lancashire authorities. I've been doing some work in Cambridge and Peterborough. And whoever you talk to, the big issue is how we plug new homes and all the growth or data centres, everything into energy and water. And we've got such a fragmented system, and you've got NASA NESO, the National Energy Supplier Organisation or whatever it is, doing its regional energy spatial plans. You've got the Cunliffe report around water trying to bring everything together and proposing regional planning groups for water. Um, but we're facing these problems now. There were so many reports about the so many parts of England that are gonna basically run out of water by 2035 if we don't start building these now. And that that brings you to who's gonna pay for it, have we got a system that can deliver it quickly? And if anybody's involved in Cambridge and Peterborough or Greater Cambridge, you just have to look at what's happening there, and that's it. Accelerated processes, and it's still gonna take ages. So I think this is the biggest issue we're gonna face.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

And actually, not to pass back, but again, one of the reasons I think MIPIM is valuable because actually you go to that and there are cities and countries and private sector operators who have delivered those kinds of big infrastructure schemes and made it work in other markets, and we really, really need to get better at looking at those and going, Oh, we could do that. There is the expertise, we could use that here without paying through the nose for it. The number of really senior kind of engineers that I'd spoke to out there who said from the big firms who said the UK is brilliant at planning these things, at kind of sorting out the policy and the procurement and structuring it, but then it's really terrible at doing them. And that this woman said to me, I've made my career, she's based in the Middle East at the moment, but she's worked in China and all over in South America, very sick, one of the big engineering practices, and she said, I've made my career lifting things that I worked on in principle in the UK but delivered elsewhere. And I think we just need to we need to flip that around because these things have got to start coming together.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

We've got this fantastic new system of strategic planning coming forward. It is the bit that breaks. Who was responsible for that? Do you think? Who was responsible for that? It's an amazing new system, but you know, so my one of my big frustrations, and I don't know whether I've said this in the the padboard before, but when we had the South East Plan RSS, we had two reservoirs proposed. We worked with Environment Agency, Natural England, the water companies, everybody. We had a strong business case for these reservoirs 20 years ago, and of course, when Mr. Pickles destroyed it all, it was one of the many unintended consequences was we stopped planning for essential infrastructure. So we've got we're we're starting from minus at the moment to try and just plan for these and then get the money and then deliver. But we've got a system coming in place, we just need to make sure everybody is having the same conversation.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

And I think as much as we can occasionally tease you, Katrina, for kind of being the kind of the front jazz hands for strategic planning at every opportunity. Actually, one of the things you shared in our chat group this week, there was a great article from The Good Economy, who are a fantastic consultancy, all about infrastructure investment and bringing inward investment into the UK, but it didn't mention the strategic planning or in your SDS as a vehicle, and actually that you really highlighted it's those silos that people sit in. Very expert people who actually if they heard about it would really understand it. But it is the need for us always to be banging that drum and joining those dots because the silos are so embedded. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

There's so I mean, the fantastic Paul Freiner, friend of ours, all of ours, Paul is one of the few people that is joining the dots up in a lot of this. He works with the good economy and we've got some other people out there that are sort of saying, look, it's all very well thinking about investment, but you also have to think about the planning bit. And I wish we didn't call them spatial development strategies. I wish we could call them something that other people understood, you know. Um investment, spatial investment frameworks is mine, and I keep getting told by civil servants, but it's not called a spatial investment framework. But it says what it is.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah, it tells you well, it tells you how you could use it. And actually that's the point, it's the art of the possible. It makes people link the planning to the money, actually by telling you that's what it could be.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Yeah. But at least these conversations are now happening, and that's the important thing. The more we talk about it, the more we will join up the dots.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

We will. But Jackie, in terms of innovation corridor, any any updates that you guys have?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Well, I mean, we were thrilled that our new town, which is Cruise Hill in Enfield, made the cut of the seven that were kept. But yeah, we've got a board meeting next week, so there's all sorts of things going on. And just to say, and girls, you're because I've had this conversation with you privately, we are now out officially looking for a new chair. My term of office ends in November. We're casting our net far and wide. Um, it's a great opportunity for somebody, and we are looking for a new chair. But more on the Innovation Corridor, I think, for UK Reef.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Brilliant. That'd be great. And okay, let's dig into the Newtown thing then, because the 12 to the 7, was that anticipated? I feel like that was a bit of a damp squib for some people, a bit of a disappointment, or do you think it was no news?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I have to say, I'm not going to dob anybody in, but most of the people I've spoken to in the industry are a little bit bewildered about why that announcement was made at all. Yes. So for those who don't know, there were five of them cut. Adlington in Cheshire, which is I think it would be a bit of a blow for our friend Mr Walkley as he takes up the reins of running the Cheshire Combined Authority. Hayford Park, which is a satellite of Oxford, Markham in Exeter, Plymouth in Devon, obviously, and my friends at Witchhaven in Worcestershire didn't get the cut either. Now I am hoping that all five of these are going to plough on with their plans in any case. And I understand that there is a scenario whereby a little bit like the Hokey Kokey, they could be in, out, in out, they still could be negotiating their way back in. And then of the seven that were retained, again, I mean, most of these were brownfield schemes. So the one in Leeds, one in Manchester, Bristol, Milton and Keynes, Thamesme, they're all brownfield schemes. So pretty well, very urban. Her housing estates in urban contexts. Enfield, my one in the Innovation Corridor, is really an urban extension.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Um, and the only real new town that you have amongst the list that is physically differentiated from the terrain around it is Thamesford, in the fact that it's a physically distinct settlement in the way that back in the day the old new towns were physically different.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

And that's the one Bedfordshire linked to the East West Rail station.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And very well favoured, and of course, urban and civic and Count Errol, I mean, there's only a few landowners. So this is quite an interesting scenario. All I will say is a couple of things to say out of this. First of all, even the government struggles to find sites. This is it's it's very, very hard. We're not manufacturing any new land in the UK, and my god, this is that we are now seeing that. The rationale, I suppose, for the last 800 years in terms of economic growth is that we grow cities, and I suppose it would be no bad thing just to just to admit that, really. And you've been doing this for some time. The total contribution of the entire programme as it stands is 191,000 homes. Now, that's really important, and I'm fully supportive of the programme, but it is not the answer, it's not going to solve the problem. It's going to be if you aggregate that over 20 years, you're talking about less than 3% of the government target. And so the likes of, and I'm I have to now swear on this podcast, the likes of Forest City come back in again with their ambition to do 400,000 homes because that would shift the dial. So there's quite a lot of things, and it goes back to I think the notte thesis, which is that you need to press on all of these fronts at all times. You need a thousand flowers to bloom in order to sort out the housing crisis. The stuff we were talking about earlier on in right sizing, the stuff about the new towns, the stuff about new models of delivery, um perhaps a wholesale return to council housing. I mean, a whole bunch of buttons you've got to press at once, right, in order to solve this problem. And please could we have a cross-whitehall cross-party accord on the fact that we've got a housing crisis. So there's a whole bunch of things that have come out of this. Having said that, fair play to the New Towns Task Force and fair play to the programme. I am urging Forest City to join that programme. I understand it's still an open programme, and I think it is at least making some progress, and I'm pleased to see it.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

I think but I mean, back to Mippin. Um so for me, uh it wasn't a surprise that they'd reduced it because I think this is a government programme, and what they've said all along is it this is the ones they are taking forward. There is a whole load more that are going to come through SDSs and everything else. The sheer number of houses mean we're gonna be looking at some very big strategic developments coming forward. They might not all hit that magic 10,000 initially, and some may be much larger than that going forward. But I think this is the way I looked at it was this is the showcase. This is the seven showcase new towns that the government is going to keep control of, but they want this to be an example for all those others, including the ones that get dropped. Um, and there will be different reasons. I was quite disappointed in the one in Oxfordshire, um, but I suspect that's gonna go forward anyway. Um, so I think for me, I felt this was a little bit of show and tell from the government. These are the ones we want to take forward, we're gonna put everything into it. These will demonstrate how it can be done, these are gonna be our exemplars. So I think that was that's how I read it. The second thing which was really interesting is that they've come off the fence now around the housing numbers, and yeah, you're right, Jackie. Overall, nationally it's a lot, but if you spread it over 20, 30 years, it's not. But actually, for some of these areas, it's a big bit of their housing target, and there was a lot of political concern in these areas. So initially there was a lot of local areas that didn't put forward their ones because they were told they wouldn't count towards their housing numbers, and if that happened, it meant they would have to do this over and above already challenging housing targets. So they've now come off the fence and said, nope, they will contribute to your housing targets, whatever, which it's just academic for many people, but actually politically it's a really sound message. Um so I I wasn't disappointed, um, and I didn't expect all 12 to be taken forward because they can't afford it apart from anything else. But I do hope they are get they do get taken forward as these exemplars, and we and all the others come forward as a result of that.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah. I do worry slightly that we will get bogged down in the kind of the academic pedantry around the terminology, as it does exactly as you outlined, Jackie, the kind of new town versus what's actually an urban extension. There was a piece on uh BBC Local News with the previous combined authority, Tory government, complaining that it wasn't new and they'd started it off and and it was ever thus. These things take a really, really long time. But as we heard from Helen Godwin, the mayor of the West Diffinking Combined Authority, when she was here, it has taken an awful lot of work. But the catalyst, they've announced a new station, they've announced a new arena, that those things are meaning that actually the delivery can come forward. And the bit that I think I still get slightly frustrated, slightly very frustrated with this government is the naive assumption that the planning reform, which is so needed and really clear and really, really good stuff, has kind of ticked the box in terms of delivery because it absolutely hasn't. And you know, the word that you hear ad nauseam at MIPIM and every other conference is viability, right? That is still a massive challenge. And I'm just a bit concerned there's a real lack of understanding of the complexity of what it's going to take to get to actual delivery and whether you are an RP that still can't afford to kind of buy Section 106 units, so the developers can't progress to the next phases of things, and actually allowing you know London authorities going, well, we'll allow you to convert that to for sale housing. Well, that doesn't actually help because there's no market for that either at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

So yeah, but we're seeing the other announcement that it made a couple of weeks ago was millions of pounds being given to mayors for Brownfield sites and totally transforming the viability cases in these areas. We've already seen it happen in Newcastle in the North East, but we had a whole load more funding go to some of these the other combined authorities in the north to actually bring forward really important Brownfield sites, which, as you say, have been unviable and really difficult to deliver. So, you know, planning reforms are important, but I and I keep saying this every conference I speak at, it's the sort of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act bill is going to get we received royal assent hopefully in the summer, probably June. What that brings is phenomenal in terms of levers, in terms of funding, being able to have flexibility to direct funding to where it's needed. And that's the thing that is going to be transformative. The planning reform fits within all of that, but I genuinely think that this next bit of legislation is going to be for many areas the thing that changes it, and that's back to that point about expressions of interest. Everybody now, pretty much in England, is having a conversation around who's buddying up with who, how far do they want to go in devolution, but they're all talking about it and they all know that there's goodies to be won in that.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

And actually, we should say that the government should be commended because they have actually successfully launched the National Housing Bank. Yep. And last week it was announced that Simon Sentry, who's the Chief Investment Officer at Homes England, is going to be the CEO and Peter Vernon, ex-grovenor, is going to be the chair. Safe pairs of hands.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Oh, these are brilliant appointments, aren't they? I mean, they're just brilliant appointments, and they will give confidence to the market. Definitely. And they do show intents, so we love all of that.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

And you know, 16 billion of money that to I think the the challenge will be growing it as a bank that can generate new capital to be invested. It isn't all already allocated. But that we should say is a really strong, strong move from the government to kind of shift things. So there's lots to be optimistic about. But as we are rapidly running out of time, Katrina, there's something really challenging to talk about, which I think we just wanted to surface in the pad pod, which is the need for a bit more support for public sector planners because there's been scary clips flying around all over the place, but really unpleasant working conditions for public planners in a number of places. I wondered if you wanted to outline that.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

So I think that the trigger was a recent example at Basildon Planning Committee, which I think went on till one o'clock in the morning or something like that. So I guess temperature were afraid, but it was the leader of the reform group, uh, it was Agri Beltsite, whatever, and actually what they were talking about was irrelevant. It was the way that he spoke to the officers, and we're hearing of examples of this all over the place. The standards of uh counsellors has always been something in local government we are incredibly proud of. There's a huge amount of respect, but there's two things. One, we've got a whole load of new counsellors who maybe aren't there for the right reasons. That's one thing. We've got the inability of chief exec leaders to actually control standards now. The sort of the there's not a lot they can do to actually enforce. I mean, this particular councillor that caused the ruckus was arrested last September for abusing officers. Now it has to be said, I don't know whether that he was actually charged with that, but he was arrested in the offices in front of everybody and it was for abuse. So the fact that he sits on the planning committee making really important decisions and is allowed to say to the just be extremely rude to these poor officers is awful. But this is not new, and I know the government is trying to tackle standards issues, and I I hope we end up with a system I'd like to think we don't have to that it would be it would be a small example that have to be made of councillors, but we're just seeing an awful lot of it, and it's not just planning, uh it's right across the board officers being treated really, really poorly by councillors and the social media stuff. This is not new, but it is definitely escalating.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

I mean, Jackie, do you think with your kind of central civil service hat on that kind of shift from civil servants always protected by kind of the anonymous anonymity because the minister will take the wrap and then suddenly civil servants are being named and shamed and thrown under the bus. It has the culture has changed, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

I I think it has changed. In fact, it came up in question time on the telly the other day with where a woman uh made a contribution from the floor to say she was just appalled at the lack of respect. And with the fact that there's no respect for teachers, there's no respect for police, so there's no respect for and I think this is a shocking indictment of council elected councillors that they they can be allowed to abuse officers. Um and I it's terrible. And I don't want to sound like a cracked record here, but you people have got to take their own responsibility for their own actions. I mean, it's as simple as that, and of course, we are hoping, I keep pushing for the return of planning summer school, yeah, for better training for elected councillors and also for officers in dealing with one another, and that that inculcation of a culture of respect, we've got to get back there.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

But of course, we've got compulsory training for councillors coming forward as part of the Planning and Infrastructure Act. That was one of the latest raft of consultations around the regulations. The problem is they can sit and train, they can sit and get all the training under the world uh in the world around what they need to do as a as part of a planning committee, but they don't it's the etiquette, it's the respect, it's just being a nice person. So we had the situation Heartsmere Council last week, where we had a councillor making a decision, turning down an application, and and the chair said, right, well, you need to decide why, you need to give us reasons. And he sat there and he went, No, I don't. I'm elected to make these decisions. I don't have to give you any reasons whatsoever about why we're turning it down. That's just not true, is it?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

No, it's absolutely not true. But it's a lack of respect for the policy and the process as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

It's actually a lack of respect for the law.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yeah, and he kept on pushing back. They have been trained to the nth degree. It doesn't matter. If they don't want to listen, they won't listen.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

That's tragic. That is very tricky to manage, isn't it? Because it is those cultural things that get embedded. You know, I know we don't necessarily want to get crystal ball projections out, but I think uh it's safe to assume there are going to be some substantial changes in the May elections, and that we're probably looking at the shift from a fairly solid two-party system in most of the country into a much more fragmented five or six, lots of uneasy coalitions. So just things getting a lot more complex in in local government, and how you handle that when you maybe haven't got those solid alliances, or you know, the ability to build them is going to make decision making even more difficult.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Yeah, it's heartbreaking because we we know how difficult it is to work in the public sector planners, recruitment intention is really challenging. But what why would you stick around if you're facing that sort of level of abuse? You're sitting in planning committees till one o'clock in the morning, and all you're getting is criticised for being professional.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah. You know, why would you got to do an awful lot more to motivate the professional. I think in May we're going to see a massive amount of fragmentation, as Alex says, and an awful lot of tactical voting. All I will observe is that the left seemed, if I can categorize it very roughly, the left seemed better at forming alliances and being and and working together. So you might see all sorts of things going on between the Greens, Labour Party, the Lib Dems, and I'm not so sure the right are that good at it. They seem to just want to try and outright one another. But I mean, the fragmentation we're going to see in May, I mean, the different the various different kinds of blends of folk we're going to have and all these different local authorities. Well, it's going to be it's going to be like dolly mixtures, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Well, we've got the fabulous Rachel Fisher on the case now as chief uh RTPI chief exec, and hopefully they will sort of work with the LGA, Solace, and all the other people that are involved in that to try and at least find some way of managing the situation and making it better.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah, well, here's hoping, and we will continue to send out hugs and applause and support to all the planning fraternity facing that.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

And fight for a summer school because we need to bring the fun back.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

We do need the and we love our planners in local authorities. We love you all. We absolutely do. Here, here. Well, let's talk about the fun stuff coming. So, our next episode, Jackie, you will be in the chair. And who have we who have you managed to wrangle to come along?

SPEAKER_01 38:44

My very good friend, Mayor Roxana Fiaz. Now, we are doing a very good line in female mayors, aren't we, on this podcast? We're gonna have to mop them all up, girls, aren't we? But good start with Helen Godwin at the last podcast. And we've got Roxana coming in next time. Different sort of mayoral model, because she took over from Mayor of Robin Wales now defected to reform. I don't know whether you saw that. It's extraordinary. Robin Wales, who piloted Newham through the Olympics, of course, and all the rest of it, as Labour mayor of Newham. Roxana took over from him. I don't think that was could have been the easiest of transitions. She's now stepping down as mayor of Newham. Very, very interesting and an awful lot to say. What next for Roxana? We very much look forward to interviewing her.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

So I'm assuming you'll get her lined up for that.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

I'll tell her that you'll be after karaoke's songs. I might not push that too hard. She's a lovely woman and she's very warm-hearted and very, very generous. So I think we'll enjoy talking to her.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

My guess is she'll have a good one because when I was co-chair of the Creative Land Trust, one of the buildings that we bought and funded with some contribution from the Borough of Newham was an art studio, it was a historic building, um, Alice Billing's house in in Newham and at the launch was definitely down for a boogie, if not karaoke. So I'm hoping that she will excellent speaker. She's a game girl, Katrina.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

She's right, she's right up your street, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

So we'll do that. And then UK Reef is fast approaching, so everyone's getting their leads diaries fast and ready. But I think we've got some fun planned, although without you, Katrina. So me, I will be in Scotland.

unknown 40:09

Well yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

So Katrina's off to do the 60th birthday tour with Graham. Apparently, he's having an entire year's worth of partying, and she's under a three-line whip for that. So Alexander. Fair enough. You and I are gonna have to carry the torch. I think we might get we're roping Gavin in. We're getting Gavin back off the subsbench to come and help out.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

We'll put a wig on him and he can talk about Fashion Watch, it'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Well, he's rather better at Fashion Watch than me, as we all know. He's far more interested than you, Jerky. And and the and the lovely Pete will will look after us, and we will be doing that, I think, live on the Monday night of UK Reef.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Cuba Revolution, I believe, in Leeds.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Again, we'll we'll channel you, we'll find a way to say it. I'll be sitting on the Monday night and on my deck in the caravan with my wee cocktail thinking about you.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Well, you'll have to have a cocktail for us, darling, because of course we don't drink.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

No, of course, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

And with that bonchel, there we go. I think that's our one-year anniversary edition wrapped up nicely. Thank you, brilliant girls, for a fantastic run through, so much exciting stuff going on.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Never stops, does it?

SPEAKER_02 41:09

It certainly doesn't. Lots to do, but yeah, we're looking forward to our new guests with all our new listers. Thank you all for listening. See you soon. Thank you. Bye. That's it for this episode of Planning After Dark. Thanks to Kratos Group for making it happen. Their team connects people and places through communications that drive change. Head to Kratos.co.uk.